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Post by hrcak47 on Apr 20, 2019 1:52:16 GMT -6
I feel like this is a step backwards, ultimately the DRM will get cracked, and the only one that will suffer with inconvenience will be the paying customers.
That said, I plan on a new PC by the end of the year. Do I really need to buy RtW2 again?
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 20, 2019 1:52:20 GMT -6
...however, now the hardware-generated code changes obviously and I have to send a mail again with my serial to get a code for the game - but, strictly speaking, this is my third computer, isn't it, forcing me to buy the game again? It was stated that you'd be able to migrate the game to new hardware: Yes, you will be able to transfer the game to another PC.
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Post by gurudennis on Apr 20, 2019 1:58:28 GMT -6
It was stated that you'd be able to migrate the game to new hardware: For how long? Two years, five, ten? it's effectively a ticking clock of unknown duration before your game no longer runs on your next new PC.
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 20, 2019 2:05:59 GMT -6
It was stated that you'd be able to migrate the game to new hardware: For how long? Two years, five, ten? it's effectively a ticking clock of unknown duration before your game no longer runs on your next new PC. You are perfectly right and I think yours is a valid concern, I was simply relaying the reply to the more immediate one. For longevity, a stopgap might be to unlock your copy, or one of them, on a vritual drive and keep a copy of that somewhere safe. That way the "hardware" shouldn't change even if you put it on different system since it's all emulated to begin with (hopefully, never tried).
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Post by akosjaccik on Apr 20, 2019 2:10:34 GMT -6
It was stated that you'd be able to migrate the game to new hardware. So buyers will be able to > probably install the game on two computers, and > migrate the product via e-mail
> meanwhile no online checks are present in the background.
That (the possibility of migrating) is on one hand rather good news, but on the other hand... what's the whole point, then? This more and more looks like a "pinky promise"-system, and I am fine with that (even though realistic concerns still remain), I have no intention to abuse the product, it's just... all this manual work for what, in the end?
Oh well, they are free to conduct business as they see fit.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 2:34:56 GMT -6
Note,
Again, we do have decades of experience as PC wargamers ourselves so we did not walk into this idea without some serious thought and experience put into it.
There is really nothing complicated about the APS routine being planned. One email and you get a code that unlocks the game, but you can start playing right away for a certain length of time. We can update the registration as needed and up to 2 PCs for your own personal use is being worked on. No need to be constantly online to play or get started. If we ever stop supporting the RTW2 (unlikely anytime in the near future) the APS could be unlocked.
One email to unlock RTW2 and only one email to update the registration if needed..
Done.. nothing complicated, sinister, draconian, intrusive, etc...
All we are asking for is some reasonable protection, and we looked over a LOT of different options, and this is a very simple process.
Thanks Christopher Dean NWS Wargaming Store
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 4:10:21 GMT -6
Note, Again, we do have decades of experience as PC wargamers ourselves so we did not walk into this idea without some serious thought and experience put into it. There is really nothing complicated about the APS routine being planned. One email and you get a code that unlocks the game, but you can start playing right away for a certain length of time. We can update the registration as needed and up to 2 PCs for your own personal use is being worked on. No need to be constantly online to play or get started. If we ever stop supporting the RTW2 (unlikely anytime in the near future) the APS could be unlocked. One email to unlock RTW2 and only one email to update the registration if needed.. Done.. nothing complicated, sinister, draconian, intrusive, etc... All we are asking for is some reasonable protection, and we looked over a LOT of different options, and this is a very simple process. Thanks Christopher Dean NWS Wargaming Store In all sincerity, are you able to share the research that indicates sales will improve with protection like this implemented compared to the sales you might lose from potential buyers who will now not purchase the product? Sure, less pirates may be able to play the game (although that is debatable since they will find a way), but does not mean those same people will actually end up purchasing the game. And if it is not that large of a gain, just more work and less pleasant experience for your paying customers, especially in a smaller market where support is critical. I have seen this type of protection before and although on paper it seems less intrusive it's not how it often turns out. 1) I am going to assume the process is not automated, meaning that a person has to respond to all these code request exchanges. What happens when people are on vacation? Or its a holiday? Or the person simply doesn't have time to timely respond to a request? The requests end up in someone's junk mail. I know it may seem trivial but I have seen many frustrated customers try to get their game working again and people want to play when they want to play, not around someone else's schedule for a product they paid money for. I know some people will say this is OK, but wait until it happens to them personally the first time. 2) Many new purchasers are confused by the process of exchanging the emails and keys. Yes again on paper seems simple, but not everyone is computer savy. I have seen a number of times where messages go back and forth between a customer and support asking how to do it. They ask how do I get my machine code? Where do I send the email? How do I input? Even with detailed instructions, some people struggle. Again goes back to people wanting to play a game when they want, without having to jump through hoops, even if it is perceived an easy process. 3) Tracking the codes. Every time you have new PC and/or significant changes to your computer, you have to make sure your tracking all the different IDs instead of just having one from the start. Again on paper trivial, but for some people they can't keep track and end up losing or having the wrong one. 4) What does the protection scheme look at to determine if new code required? The motherboard? General computer configuration like memory, hard drives, etc? 5) In the case of you not being in business anymore....I understand the intent would be to release an "unlock" key, but what if the situation doesn't permit it (who knows what could happen for any reason)? Again, I know you have the best of intentions, but there are no guarantees and always the "possibility" of the gamer not being able to play their game in the future. 6) As all these recent posts have shown, the talk of the DRM will always happen in the forum because you'll always have two sides. Potential buyers will see it and they will think twice in purchasing, where otherwise it would have been a better chance for purchase. Reviews will mention it and as people talk about the game in other circles it will be mentioned. Just matter of determining if all that is really worth it. So yes, the protection scheme on paper is less intrusive than some other, but doesn't mean its a great experience for your paying customers and customers who have previously supported your products. It's a shame that pirates exist that lead you to this decision, but I really suspect its not going to solve the problem since most pirates find a way to break any game if they want. I realize nothing I say will change your mind, but just thought important enough to voice one lost customer's opinion, which may represent others who don't post on the boards. Anyway, good luck with the release and hopefully in the future it will be reconsidered.
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Post by axe99 on Apr 20, 2019 4:51:46 GMT -6
Note, Again, we do have decades of experience as PC wargamers ourselves so we did not walk into this idea without some serious thought and experience put into it. There is really nothing complicated about the APS routine being planned. One email and you get a code that unlocks the game, but you can start playing right away for a certain length of time. We can update the registration as needed and up to 2 PCs for your own personal use is being worked on. No need to be constantly online to play or get started. If we ever stop supporting the RTW2 (unlikely anytime in the near future) the APS could be unlocked. One email to unlock RTW2 and only one email to update the registration if needed.. Done.. nothing complicated, sinister, draconian, intrusive, etc... All we are asking for is some reasonable protection, and we looked over a LOT of different options, and this is a very simple process. Thanks Christopher Dean NWS Wargaming Store As long as you have a plan to unlock if there's a need in the future, that's all good with me - very much respect your wish not to be pirated. Having seen developers who I knew personally destroyed by piracy in the past (for those in this thread saying piracy doesn't hurt devs, you're probably relying on statistically unrepresentative anecdotes, rather than the fundamental effect of piracy) I'd much rather have copy protection and a better chance of RtW3 or SaI2. The problem with anti-piracy everything is basically that they punish the legitimate customer in some way, always. Some games like Assassin's Creed have noticeably higher CPU usage due to DRM running in the background (while pirates do not suffer from it, because they crack it away), some require always-online (while the pirates don't due to cracks), and it seems that, RTW2, will punish the paying customer by only allowing one PC. I do not like this decision and hope that it will be more lax (2-3 PCs at least, preferably unlimited). There is a very high chance of pirates cracking this system within mere hours or days of release, allowing them unlimited access, while paying customers are stuck with 1 PC. It's not as if money launderers tend to pay a lot of taxes for police forces either, and the various laws which we follow that criminals don't inconvenience us and not the criminals, but by and large they're a very good idea. Don't blame the devs here, blame the (usually - there are a few exceptions, but generally) self-centered pirates that mean the devs have to do this to ensure a fair return on effort. At the end of the day, the only way to truly beat DRM is to develop a culture amongst gamers that calls out pirates for the troublemakers they are. Unless the gaming community as a whole does something about piracy, DRM is always likely to be necessary, just like if a culture more broadly doesn't promote anti-crime attitudes, it's going to end up spending a lot of money on police instead (or suffer a barely-functioning society with the broader economic hardship that entails).
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 4:55:07 GMT -6
Grim,
As to research.. I will not get into that, we have our reasons.
Not trying to sound argumentative but we already took into account your thoughts - again, we are not novices. We can set the security in a LOT of different ways. Its a very adaptable and flexible system.
If you, or anyone else, has a better idea for some reasonable security that is not (a) the perpetual honor system, (b) does not include a 3rd party (which can create complications), (c) can at least counter various casual piracy, and (d) that everyone can agree on.. we are all ears. We are open to suggestions.. IF.. those 4 categories can be reasonably met.
We take our efforts very seriously and will be watching the system closely but under present testing it has worked very well so far and using the codes is no more of a problem then the one we use now but players can start playing right after download and RTW1 has held up just fine using an install code, other then the lack of initial install code automation - but I usually reply very quickly.
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Post by kungfutreachery on Apr 20, 2019 5:09:47 GMT -6
"but I usually reply very quickly" Sir: in the wild west of Web 1.0 maybe this was a tolerable business practice, but it hasn't been that way in a long time. More than anything else this is the problem with the system.
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 20, 2019 5:11:17 GMT -6
Grim, As to research.. I will not get into that, we have our reasons. Not trying to sound argumentative but we already took into account your thoughts - again, we are not novices. We can set the security in a LOT of different ways. Its a very adaptable and flexible system. If you, or anyone else, has a better idea for some reasonable security that is not (a) the perpetual honor system, (b) does not include a 3rd party (which can create complications), (c) can at least counter various casual piracy, and (d) that everyone can agree on.. we are all ears. We are open to suggestions.. IF.. those 4 categories can be reasonably met. We take our efforts very seriously and will be watching the system closely but under present testing it has worked very well so far and using the codes is no more of a problem then the one we use now but players can start playing right after download and RTW1 has held up just fine using an install code, other then the lack of initial install code automation - but I usually reply very quickly. Only time will tell....as I said, I know you all have good intentions and that was never a question but I personally don't believe (and yes I could be wrong) it will have a dramatic impact in solving your original concerns vs outweighing the concerns outlined above. You mention you can start playing the game right away upon download, can you provide more detail? Can you play the full game or is it some kind of limited version until you get the license code? And how long can you play it before the license code has to be applied? Thanks.
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Post by mahrgell on Apr 20, 2019 5:21:59 GMT -6
So this whole system relies on you answering your emails. Great. And because you answer your emails very quickly right now, people should totally trust you to do that for the next years too.
Sorry, but this story had been told thousands of times in the previous 2 decades. And then the devs got tired of it, burned out, decided to do the the one year sabatical in Nepal they always dreamt of, turned off their email account as they got too many hate mails or married a new wife which forced them to drop this childish gaming business.... and went completely MIA. And the actually honest customers now were unable to play their games, while those who cracked it in first place were laughing at them.
For me RtW2 was one of those typical library games. The ones I buy, because I loved their predecessor and thought it looks promising, even though I right now really have time for it. And then, in the rare moments I have time, I go through my library to reveal the gems I always wanted to play and feel this chilidish happiness of finally being able to toy with it. But this DRM makes the game entirely unsuited for it. And I'm quite sure in those rare moments of spare time I will find some gems in my library and not need to look around what I could buy. Or maybe I will just play RtW1.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 5:23:28 GMT -6
axe99
Agreed .. if STEAM thought piracy was a joke.. they would never bother with spending a fortune on theirs and few argue with their success and many of their dev contacts would likely never use them otherwise.
However their venue is not the bullet proof answer for everyone, us included.
There has to be a reasonable balance somewhere.
I hate APS systems just like anyone else.. but we do not live in a perfect world and never will and I have yet to see anyone with a perfect answer to the multi-level problem as most only look at the problem from one or maybe two possible dimensions. I will just say I have been around the block a few times and many answers I see based on "articles" and opinions.. are sometimes flat out wrong, stats out of context, or incomplete as they do not take into account all possible methods of losses suffered by publishers or their contacts. I cannot go any further into that topic for publisher relations and other reasons. Just like any other complex topic.. many have opinions but like a shotgun blast at long range.. few pellets ever get close to the mark, and some never even hit the target.
Thanks
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Post by yemo on Apr 20, 2019 5:27:08 GMT -6
So you reliably harm your reputation and your sales at launch with this "countermeasure" with the aim of maybe (and that is a big maybe) enticing pirates to pay for a now inferior product compared to the one they will find elsewhere?
I find the "mostly later in the games sales life-cycle" especially revealing. In the pre-discount-for-older-games, non-consumer-friendly world (matrix games from 2010 says hello), piracy plays a bigger role the older a game gets. Does not help that you announced your discount this late while still selling RTW1 without mentioning the imminent release of RTW2 on your store page (Distant Worlds at DW:U release says hello). Then matrix games went on to sell DW:U on steam, after years of telling people that they had decades of experience and a lot of numbers etc and that is why they did not do so before. And lo and behold, they are selling quite a lot of games on steam now. I wonder why that is, since they had decades of experience and all the numbers before and made their final decision etc., but somehow after trying it out they expanded on it (probably had nothing to do with Slitherine...).
You might have decades of experience as PC wargamers etc., but your statements strongly indicate that you have no experience with respect to piracy/DRM, planning to make the same mistakes that have been made by others before.
The point is, you are complementing late stage piracy losses (which you will increase by offering a worse legal product) with early stage DRM losses (which will probably be concealed since this is a sequel and you will sell more of RTW2 than you did RTW1 at the start - thus learning the wrong lessons, the japanese say hello).
But hey, I could be wrong and you could have stumbled upon the first ever DRM game protection which is able to curb late stage (more than a year after release) piracy. Even Denuvo does not really try to do that.
PS: Changing your single machine DRM stance 5 days before release due to forum feedback (in response to a randomly dropped "and by the way, we will use a restrictive DRM for the sequel") would give me pause to reconsider how well I know what I m doing in this respect. Decades of making games/wargaming experience does not translate to marketing/anti-piracy experience. The german Graf Zeppelin carrier project (42 planes for 34k tons displacement) says hello.
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Post by William Miller on Apr 20, 2019 5:29:14 GMT -6
"So this whole system relies on you answering your emails."
The system can be setup for more then one of us to reply to code requests or even possibly automated if needed. We are not completely oblivious to life itself.. and will have backup plans in case they are needed.
Again, if anyone has a better idea.. we are all ears. Any takers?
Thanks
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