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Post by warlock on Jun 7, 2019 13:41:23 GMT -6
This is a question with a reason behind it:
What is the largest caliber 'DP' gun you have created in RTW2?
This reminds me: what do you consider 'DP' in this context? One could argue that "heavy AA shells" for BB Mainbattery can be considered 'DP' aswell... then the answer is 18" DP guns. Yeah I was going to mention this.
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Post by alsadius on Jun 7, 2019 14:07:29 GMT -6
this is the maximum amount of dual purpose guns you can mount on a ship also it showed me just how borked anti air is against planes this thing is so **** at shooting down planes (despite it having an insane amount of dp guns) its insane this thing alone is about as good as 60 medium aa guns yes this intire ship is comparable to 60 medium aa guns also super heavy aa shells for some magical reason become unselected the next turn so either i have to constantly select them or not use them (i chose the latter) Wait, how many of the 6" primaries is that?
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Post by dorn on Jun 7, 2019 14:18:47 GMT -6
this is the maximum amount of dual purpose guns you can mount on a ship also it showed me just how borked anti air is against planes this thing is so **** at shooting down planes (despite it having an insane amount of dp guns) its insane this thing alone is about as good as 60 medium aa guns yes this intire ship is comparable to 60 medium aa guns also super heavy aa shells for some magical reason become unselected the next turn so either i have to constantly select them or not use them (i chose the latter) How is it with 5", 4" and 3" guns? Does it better or worse?
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Post by christian on Jun 7, 2019 17:12:14 GMT -6
this is the maximum amount of dual purpose guns you can mount on a ship also it showed me just how borked anti air is against planes this thing is so **** at shooting down planes (despite it having an insane amount of dp guns) its insane this thing alone is about as good as 60 medium aa guns yes this intire ship is comparable to 60 medium aa guns also super heavy aa shells for some magical reason become unselected the next turn so either i have to constantly select them or not use them (i chose the latter) Wait, how many of the 6" primaries is that? 32 6 inch guns 24 5 inch guns and 24 4 inch guns
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Post by christian on Jun 7, 2019 17:33:33 GMT -6
this is the maximum amount of dual purpose guns you can mount on a ship also it showed me just how borked anti air is against planes this thing is so **** at shooting down planes (despite it having an insane amount of dp guns) its insane this thing alone is about as good as 60 medium aa guns yes this intire ship is comparable to 60 medium aa guns also super heavy aa shells for some magical reason become unselected the next turn so either i have to constantly select them or not use them (i chose the latter) How is it with 5", 4" and 3" guns? Does it better or worse? there is a difference mainly from 4 to 5 and 6 because of vt fuse for 5 and 6 (i have absolutely no idea why 3 and 4 inch do not have vt fuses) 4 inch is worse than 5 and 6 inch guns but all in all the difference is not great and for the weight you save you might as well go with the smaller guns in my experience thus far the best anti air is friendly fighters aa guns are most of the time lackluster for their price a great example is anti aircraft cruisers are absolutely useless as they simply are not effective enough to do the job A MUCH better investment would be a light carrier with its capacity intirely filled with fighters a single one would provide cover for the main battleship force the main problem right now is just the low losses they inflict on ships they attack compared to what we see in real life especially due to post war findings that 36 % of all japanese planes that approached us warships were shot down About 7,600-7,800 enemy aircraft came within AA range of US ships during WWII. Of these, 2,773 were shot down by AA, and another 314 were lost through crashes (suicide crashes) on US ships. 36% of all the enemy planes that came within range of US naval AA were shot down. www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/Kamikaze/AAA-Summary-1045/i can say for certain i do not shoot down 36% of the enemies strike
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Post by alsadius on Jun 7, 2019 19:23:48 GMT -6
Wait, how many of the 6" primaries is that? 32 6 inch guns 24 5 inch guns and 24 4 inch guns So you have 80 heavies on, and it's the equivalent of 60 mediums? That seems wrong somehow.
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Post by aetreus on Jun 7, 2019 19:56:25 GMT -6
32 6 inch guns 24 5 inch guns and 24 4 inch guns So you have 80 heavies on, and it's the equivalent of 60 mediums? That seems wrong somehow. It's less wrong than you think. If you compare the amount of 5" ammunition required on average to kill an aircraft versus the amount of 40mm ammunition(~300 VT rounds compared to 1700 40mm rounds), the RoF difference suggests that a 5" barrel was actually slightly less capable than a 40mm barrel with typical fire rates. Of course that 5" gun could and did fire for longer, and in game it's represented that heavy AA guns were more reliably capable of killing aircraft before they could drop ordnance and supporting nearby ships.
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Post by namuras on Jun 7, 2019 23:07:29 GMT -6
this is the maximum amount of dual purpose guns you can mount on a ship also it showed me just how borked anti air is against planes this thing is so **** at shooting down planes (despite it having an insane amount of dp guns) its insane this thing alone is about as good as 60 medium aa guns yes this intire ship is comparable to 60 medium aa guns also super heavy aa shells for some magical reason become unselected the next turn so either i have to constantly select them or not use them (i chose the latter) The way i see it is, that DP guns are better at defending friendlies than the ship they are mounted on. Medium AA is where it is at for self defence. Heavy AA disrupts aswell, so it shouldn't be discounted, just not relied upon for self defence.
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Post by dorn on Jun 8, 2019 0:04:04 GMT -6
christianIt depends on time period. I can see 4" are quite effective and 4x2x4" is more effective to 3x2x5" ať end of 30" and beginning of 40". I agree AA guns are not much effective shooting Down aircrafts but it is not their job. Their main job is disrupt the attack and it is difficult to evaluate but it seems to me that it works somehow. I would not used statistics you mentioned as base evaluation. The difference of quality of Japanese pilots and aircrafts was so high between early and later stage of war that doing any conclusion is quite difficult. So you should probably not have 36 % enemy aircrafts destroyed as the situation is not comparable.
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Post by christian on Jun 9, 2019 13:58:49 GMT -6
christian It depends on time period. I can see 4" are quite effective and 4x2x4" is more effective to 3x2x5" ať end of 30" and beginning of 40". I agree AA guns are not much effective shooting Down aircrafts but it is not their job. Their main job is disrupt the attack and it is difficult to evaluate but it seems to me that it works somehow. I would not used statistics you mentioned as base evaluation. The difference of quality of Japanese pilots and aircrafts was so high between early and later stage of war that doing any conclusion is quite difficult. So you should probably not have 36 % enemy aircrafts destroyed as the situation is not comparable. these are the best results i could get with the absolute maximum tech in the game and 110 knot torpedo biplanes a measly 29 shots down by 4 giant dual purpose islands yeah the pilots were more experienced early on but and the american ships had worse and less aa but this dosent mean the data cannot be used the early war data just means that decent aa vs quite skilled pilots while the late war data is advanced aa vs lower quality pilots also the pattern would likely look like this for all nations (pilot skill) due to the fact better quality pilots usually could not be trained at the rate pilots were dying yes the main job is to prevent the aircraft dropping their load but most anti aircraft guns are damn good at shooting down aircraft example is an atlanta with 5 inch vt fuses in 1943 if they got a kill every 155 rounds that would assentially equate to around 13 salvoes and with a rof of 15 with secondary ammo storage planes are falling every minute and this is not considering 40mm guns 3-6" guns should get vt fuse in research sure 3 inch should come later but point and so would 4 inch but they would still come all in all im quite dissapointed in the ability of my super aa islands to shoot down 1920s torpedo bombers Attachments:
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Post by christian on Jun 9, 2019 14:00:43 GMT -6
32 6 inch guns 24 5 inch guns and 24 4 inch guns So you have 80 heavies on, and it's the equivalent of 60 mediums? That seems wrong somehow. which is exactly what im trying to get across 80 dual purpose long range guns shouldnt be about as effective as 60 medium aa guns they should be wayy wayyy more effective than the 60 medium aa guns
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Jun 10, 2019 4:40:23 GMT -6
So you have 80 heavies on, and it's the equivalent of 60 mediums? That seems wrong somehow. which is exactly what im trying to get across 80 dual purpose long range guns shouldnt be about as effective as 60 medium aa guns they should be wayy wayyy more effective than the 60 medium aa guns Maybe a bit more effective (like, equivalent of 80?) but not way more as per unit of time Bofors was both the most effective in scoring air victories per barrel and scored the most air victories total. I'm allowing the "bit more" because there were possibly (though not necessarily) fewer 5" barrels engaging target during it's attack run than 40mm ones and the 5" still scored considerable amount of air victories. (Edit) Just noticed you have autoloaders, in that case I'm inclined to agree, though I'd also note that post war design tended to focus on fewer higher quality guns with better firecontrol, and that the said ship design seems completely unworkable due to lack of deck space.
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 10, 2019 5:34:49 GMT -6
So you have 80 heavies on, and it's the equivalent of 60 mediums? That seems wrong somehow. which is exactly what im trying to get across 80 dual purpose long range guns shouldnt be about as effective as 60 medium aa guns they should be wayy wayyy more effective than the 60 medium aa guns To be honest that ship should not be very effective at all (in real life) for the time and investment in resources into it. Not in this time period... there is also a reason why the 6" never really worked as DP in real life and why it was never developed passed 1944-45. There is a thing as too much gunfire and then the gunners don't know which one are their fire in the same way when firing on an enemy ship. You could potentially get a ship that do LESS damage against an aircraft because of it. The other problem is suppression... if an enemy plane manages to score a few dive bomber hit for example they could suppress allot of that AA fire while many smaller more dispersed reasonable AA fire would be much more useful in general. In game it is as far as a I can tell more efficient and useful to have a decent amount of AA on many ships rather that some super purpose build ship bristling with DP guns. I don't even bother with 6" DP guns... I just make secondary and tertiary batteries with DP and slap on as much medium as I can after that. That seem to work just fine in my experience... I then just screen my carriers and battleships with cruisers and destroyers.
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AiryW
Full Member
Posts: 183
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Post by AiryW on Jun 10, 2019 8:03:29 GMT -6
That is a really cool source, thanks for sharing it. I do worry about the accuracy of the numbers however. The report was written in 1945 when it wouldn't be possible to compare to Japanese records. While it's much easier for the defender then the attacker to identify a downed enemy, it still is in the middle of the ocean and often under conditions where the Americans would be travelling at high speed not sticking around for a rigorous counting.
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Post by Fredrik W on Jun 10, 2019 12:48:44 GMT -6
which is exactly what im trying to get across 80 dual purpose long range guns shouldnt be about as effective as 60 medium aa guns they should be wayy wayyy more effective than the 60 medium aa guns To be honest that ship should not be very effective at all (in real life) for the time and investment in resources into it. Not in this time period... there is also a reason why the 6" never really worked as DP in real life and why it was never developed passed 1944-45. There is a thing as too much gunfire and then the gunners don't know which one are their fire in the same way when firing on an enemy ship. You could potentially get a ship that do LESS damage against an aircraft because of it. The other problem is suppression... if an enemy plane manages to score a few dive bomber hit for example they could suppress allot of that AA fire while many smaller more dispersed reasonable AA fire would be much more useful in general. In game it is as far as a I can tell more efficient and useful to have a decent amount of AA on many ships rather that some super purpose build ship bristling with DP guns. I don't even bother with 6" DP guns... I just make secondary and tertiary batteries with DP and slap on as much medium as I can after that. That seem to work just fine in my experience... I then just screen my carriers and battleships with cruisers and destroyers. There is a diminishing return on too many heavy AA guns on a ship, to simulate difficulties in firing arcs and fire control. Also, mixed calibres of heavy AA is less effective than the same number of guns in the same calibre.
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