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Post by gornik on Jun 5, 2015 12:24:46 GMT -6
While playing with Springsharp I think about "predreadnought battlecruiser" - all-medium-guns 1900 ship design. Here is the result: Behemoth-class should overgun every cruiser, overrun every battleship and cross the T in decisive battle. With extended range she may also be ideal "protected raider", but sprigsharp said this is impossible with defined displacement (maximal for warships in that period).
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Post by alex on Jun 12, 2015 9:10:32 GMT -6
The next project of pre-dreadnought battleship: 15500t; 18 knots; belt 10inch; guns 4x12inch, 8x10inch, 20x3inch
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 12, 2015 9:31:21 GMT -6
While playing with Springsharp I think about "predreadnought battlecruiser" - all-medium-guns 1900 ship design. Here is the result: Behemoth-class should overgun every cruiser, overrun every battleship and cross the T in decisive battle. With extended range she may also be ideal "protected raider", but sprigsharp said this is impossible with defined displacement (maximal for warships in that period). Is this about what you wanted? It needs more main armament according to Springsharp. Suggest adding wing turrets.
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Post by gornik on Jun 14, 2015 8:17:44 GMT -6
Behemoth should be something like this: My first intention was to create "Good Hope killer" 6 years before Sharnhorst. I decided to use some not-best decisions, which were common in that period to simulate designer's inertia (casemates, battery at lower deck). This design was marked as undergunned, too, but I don't think so
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 14, 2015 14:20:48 GMT -6
Using the same procedures as the design boards, I’ve designed a ship to seek out and destroy trade cruisers and the German Far East Squadron. My specifications are derived from the requirements to execute that mission. This is a British ship, and they had numerous coaling stations around the world, so range could be reduced but accommodations should be better for the long voyages. Intelligence will provide me with information on that squadron and its configuration. SMS Scharnhorst only had 8.3 inch guns; 10 inch guns give me the extra range to deal with ships of her configuration and the speed to catch them. Her bow configuration and forecastle should give her adequate heavy seas capability, possibly reducing water over the bow during actions. She doesn't need torpedo tubes, they will only create hazards during any engagement, destroyers and light cruisers can handle that responsibility.
This design achieves the “Design well balanced for a Battleship or Cruiser”. She is a good sea boat and has sufficient combat power to deal with her perspective opponents.
My next task is to adapt this design for the German Navy. Their requirements will decrease the gun size, increase armor and decrease the range.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 14, 2015 15:36:18 GMT -6
Just a note; In order to eliminate the under gunned message, check performance tab and get the composite strength at 1.00. Simplest way is to use Normal, Block Coefficient block. Just increase or decrease that number until composite strength reaches 1.00. It works for many of the stability and other messages.
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Post by gornik on Jun 14, 2015 16:11:08 GMT -6
Ah, yes! Tank you, this solves problem. Though I prefer to make designs with hull strength not less then 1,10 as most real designs I tried to recreate (Good Hope, Sharnhorst, Gromoboi, Bayan)had it nearly 1,12.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 14, 2015 17:04:28 GMT -6
Ah, yes! Tank you, this solves problem. Though I prefer to make designs with hull strength not less then 1,10 as most real designs I tried to recreate (Good Hope, Scharnhorst, Gromoboi, Bayan)had it nearly 1,12. I am glad I was able to help. Remember to just design the ship the way you want and then use the block coefficient system to adjust it to a 1.00 Composite.
I am trying something different with the reports from SS. I am going to upload the SSR's and if if you are interested you can download them. It takes less HTML page space and makes scrolling easier. You can also use the report to duplicate if you desire.
Clausewitz.ssr (5.28 KB)
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Post by gornik on Jun 15, 2015 14:21:01 GMT -6
I decided to test some ships I created before in duels with other ships. Results are... interesting hope for you too Drie Roemer class upgraded with 6-inch secondaries seem to be real scourge of the seas in WWI times-she won battles with Cl's, old CA's, Roon and York at same time, Rurik II, Blucher... Usually with only light damage of herself, sometimes undamaged. Only Invincible could stop this beast Behemoth (upgraded and renamed as Olifant) did the same in RJW period. Even with main artillery calibre decreased to 8" she usually wins battles with ships of same classes. OldPop's Behemoth can sunk her only under human control. It was most interesting experiment, so I post here test battles with 1x1 and 2x2 ships of these classes: TestBattle.rar (4.17 KB) Egel fought well with other pre-dreadnoughts, but couldn't chase damaged enemies. Lessons learned (for SAI, not real life : - Speed counts very much, 2 knots of speed are better then 2 additional guns > There can't be enough protection for machinery (the main problem of Olifant was machinery) - Main artillery should be protected at all costs. (Half CA battles ended after one ship blows up)
- In RJW times, casemate mounts are most reliable. (Sometimes I saw ships with all their turret artillery jammed even without hits, while casemate guns fire till the end)
- Ship with torpedoes is much better than without, especially in RJW times. One torpedo can ruin whole day and bring defeat some minutes before victory, so fight with torp-armed enemy usually takes place at larger distances, results are more time to sink opponent, more shells wasted (importaint to raiders), and possibility to break contact for faster ships. Also in 1/3 of my tests just one torpedo hit brought victory or changed situation in battlefield in my favour. - for now submerged torpedo is better as it may be recharged - battle lasts for some hours, so one mount may fire 3-4 of them. I think risk of torpedo flat hit costs this. - QF guns in numbers at small distances are deadly, I think I'll try all-QF-gun fast battleship next time - Best "lone wolf" usually not best ship of the line. In most 1x1 battles Olifant sunk Behemoth even under computer control. In 2x2 battles their strength seems equal, in big fleet battle Behemoths may have better chances, I think. Same with Drie Roemer May be all this is trivial, but I recognised these points only now.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 15, 2015 20:03:02 GMT -6
I decided to test some ships I created before in duels with other ships. Results are... interesting hope for you too Drie Roemer class upgraded with 6-inch secondaries seem to be real scourge of the seas in WWI times-she won battles with Cl's, old CA's, Roon and York at same time, Rurik II, Blucher... Usually with only light damage of herself, sometimes undamaged. Only Invincible could stop this beast Behemoth (upgraded and renamed as Olifant) did the same in RJW period. Even with main artillery calibre decreased to 8" she usually wins battles with ships of same classes. OldPop's Behemoth can sunk her only under human control. It was most interesting experiment, so I post here test battles with 1x1 and 2x2 ships of these classes: Egel fought well with other pre-dreadnoughts, but couldn't chase damaged enemies. Lessons learned (for SAI, not real life : - Speed counts very much, 2 knots of speed are better then 2 additional guns > There can't be enough protection for machinery (the main problem of Olifant was machinery) - Main artillery should be protected at all costs. (Half CA battles ended after one ship blows up)
- In RJW times, casemate mounts are most reliable. (Sometimes I saw ships with all their turret artillery jammed even without hits, while casemate guns fire till the end)
- Ship with torpedoes is much better than without, especially in RJW times. One torpedo can ruin whole day and bring defeat some minutes before victory, so fight with torp-armed enemy usually takes place at larger distances, results are more time to sink opponent, more shells wasted (importaint to raiders), and possibility to break contact for faster ships. Also in 1/3 of my tests just one torpedo hit brought victory or changed situation in battlefield in my favour. - for now submerged torpedo is better as it may be recharged - battle lasts for some hours, so one mount may fire 3-4 of them. I think risk of torpedo flat hit costs this. - QF guns in numbers at small distances are deadly, I think I'll try all-QF-gun fast battleship next time - Best "lone wolf" usually not best ship of the line. In most 1x1 battles Olifant sunk Behemoth even under computer control. In 2x2 battles their strength seems equal, in big fleet battle Behemoths may have better chances, I think. Same with Drie Roemer May be all this is trivial, but I recognised these points only now. Sounds like you are enjoying this and that is good. Remember that ships should be a balance between speed, firepower and protection. A warship is a gun truck. It is designed to place guns in a certain position and either mission kill the enemy or sink him. Both should be attainable goals however, the overall operational goal is the most important principle. Don't just test in single one on one encounters, test in a squadron versus squadron and fleet versus fleet with a mixture of different ships. This will give you the information about the capability of your design in a realistic situation. Good luck and good hunting.
Update: Just some design principles for you. If you want higher speeds without increasing the power, try to use a higher length to beam. This will reduce hydrodynamic drag and get you a higher natural speed. However, you never get something for nothing. Higher length to beam adds extra stress on the structure and will increase the size of the armored citadel. This gives your enemy a much better target at range, to aim at. Keep your LtoB above 7.00. If you are building a ship for ocean operations then increasing the freeboard can provide good heavy seas operation including gunnery. It will however force you to increase the width of the armor belt above the waterline and this adds weight, again a trade off. If you are building a warship designed for ocean operations, stay away from casemates because they are too low on the ship for heavy seas. Turrets are the safest and can be used in almost any weather. Also, try not to use wing turrets and torpedoes, they add explosives to the outboard region of your ship and can lead to some bad events. They also reduce the bulge you can provide the ship for torpedo protection unless you increase the beam, then you lose LtoB. Torpedoes on any ship above a light cruiser are wasted. I know I put wing turrets on the German ship but a revision would remove them and use superfiring turrets mounted centerline. Don't believe that speed is a substitute for protection. A shell can move at 2400 feet per second, but a ship at 20 knots is only moving at 33.7 feet per second, need I explain that. Keep in mind this; doctrine develops requirements which leads to specifications which leads to the design of a ship. That's how you develop a design, try it by writing it up, then when the design is complete, start testing it. A ship is a balance, keep it that way.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 16, 2015 11:58:42 GMT -6
Here is a revised Behemoth class BC. Why don't you post a DesignShip version of this ship. It might be interesting. It has a different deck allocation percentage with a higher freeboard. It now has 12 inch superfiring guns and a smaller secondary battery of weapons mounted a little different. It's closer to actual design specifications for ships of this era. It's a powerful ship. The weight of broadside is now over 7800 lbs.
Behemoth.ssr (5.04 KB)
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Post by gornik on Jun 16, 2015 16:51:16 GMT -6
Here is a revised Behemoth class BC. Why don't you post a DesignShip version of this ship. It might be interesting. It has a different deck allocation percentage with a higher freeboard. It now has 12 inch superfiring guns and a smaller secondary battery of weapons mounted a little different. It's closer to actual design specifications for ships of this era. It's a powerful ship. The weight of broadside is now over 7800 lbs.
Sorry, this file seem to be previous version with 10 inch guns. Though I'll try to recreate ship you mentioned. As for testing, My CA/BC are scout hunters/raiders/raider hunters, so I test them mostly in small engagements as this is what they designed for. Even in large battles they should only support main forces (and their design is still in work). Maybe I'll design clash of fleets where they would be scouts/support in future. Today I tested different variants of Drie Roemer as she is incredibly effective and deadly New notes about SAI universe: - torpedomen are strange people - sometimes they launch all torpedoes from obviously ineffective distance, sometimes they don't want to do this from point blank range... I can't predict them... -one inch of gun calibre worth much: 5" secondaries are MUCH less effective than 6" -more 6" with paper protection are much better than less 8" in protected turrets (Seem that it is engine problem-main calibre guns calculated with more details than secondaries, and suffer more problems. This is insufficient for dreadnoughts with light secondaries, but if these two calibres are comparable, secondary battery become main while main turrets are in repair. And they can't blow up! "Second main calibre" button needed for Shipdesign) BTW, Roemer's most effective battle tactics looks absolutely mad - fast approach to point blank range of stronger opponent without attention to enemy fire and then racking shots at opponent trying to run off! Here is battle and design i used for test: Test WWI.rar (2.12 KB) And rough side view of Drie Roemer I designed using Master14 flash program: About design principles: I agree with most of them except one about torpedo mounts. Disasters from them more often happen with opponent after torpedo hits then with your ship after torpedo blowing up. And that should be reason for torpedomen to launch torpedoes faster than enemy hit their mount
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 16, 2015 17:07:10 GMT -6
Well, then we have a difference in opinion. I don't think a ship with this gun power needs to get close enough to fire torpedoes. History seems to agree with me. The torpedo in service at Jutland for the German's was the G/6 . It had a range of 5470 yards at 27 knots. For the British, it was the Mark II, 21 inch for capital ships. It had a range of 10,500 yards at 31 knots.. I don't remember reading about any capital ships using those torpedoes, maybe they did, but apparently there is not record. Are you really going to send a warship that makes 20-22 knots in that close to fire torpedoes? I certainly wouldn't. Yes they were installed on capital ships, but after the war, they were removed.
Here is an upgrade to Behemoth.
Behemoth.ssr (5.27 KB)
Upgraded guns to 12 inch and now has superfiring. Secondary batteries are 6 inch.
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Post by gornik on Jun 16, 2015 17:41:17 GMT -6
Here is she: BehemothOP-R.sdf (4.52 KB) Yes, this is mighty opponent. I should test her
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 16, 2015 17:48:51 GMT -6
Here is she: Yes, this is mighty opponent. I should test her Yup, you should. She will be a mighty opponent.
Update: Nice drawing of her. I await results of testing.
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