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Post by brucesim2003 on Jun 16, 2015 19:01:35 GMT -6
The drawing of Drie Roemer is nice, but looks far too modern. WW1 capital ships looked nothing like that. Take the rake off the funnels, give her a clipper bow (like the New Mexico's, though it's more likely to be a plough bow tbh), and add a mainmast and then you might have something from late WW1. As it is atm, it looks more like a 30's vintage ship.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 17, 2015 10:09:31 GMT -6
I did some research into torpedo rooms on dreadnoughts in "The Grand Fleet" by David K. Brown. He shows that at 29 knots, the running time for a shot at 10,000 yards was 11 minutes while an enemy could move as far as 6000 yards in any direction. This makes the chances of hitting the enemy almost remote. The results at Jutland fully supported those conclusions. He states that there were two hazards; One was the carrying of 2-3 tons of high explosives in carriage, which was a risk for above water tubes. But the more serious was the risk of flooding in the large spaces needed operate torpedoes. He show that the torpedo room on the HMS Dreadnought was a full width of the hold and 24 ft. long with a door, low down, in the warhead room which was itself again 24 ft. long. He states that in later ships it was even bigger and that the flooding of Lutzow was due in part to this problem of flooding through the watertight door. He makes the last comment that torpedo armament of capital ships was expensive, ineffective and a potential hazard. He adds that it was useless as the 6 in secondary armament. which I thought was interesting.
I don't know how SAI assesses damage and whether the addition of torpedoes, the rooms and the high explosives affects it in a significant manner but I suspect that the team is thorough so it probably does. I therefore suggest, even though it was widely done in this period, I would not design a ship with torpedo tubes installed. At least not on anything larger than light cruiser. The risks are too much for the possible results. As to the removal of the secondary armament, we know that as aircraft became more effective in fleet actions, the secondary and tertiary guns could be used in the AA role. This use did not really begin to be needed until after the First World War, so I might build a second Behemoth version with no secondary guns just to see how it affects the design.
Behemoth2.ssr (5.14 KB)
I’ve uploaded Behemoth2 design 1. Removed all 6 inch secondary guns 2. Added one twin mount, centerline 12 in gun that can fire both sides as per HMS Neptune. Ship now has 10 x 12 in 45 caliber guns. 3. Increased speed to 24 knots.
My next mod may be to add a second twin mount centerline. This will provide Behemoth with 12 x 12 inch. 45 caliber guns. Possibly a speed increase depending on power requirements.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 17, 2015 12:13:25 GMT -6
I've found a design for a light battlecruiser laid down in Germany in 1905 on a blog. I used it to design my own light battlecruiser named the kiel. I think you will find it an interesting design. She will do 31knots. The design can be applied to the British. A DesignShip2 ship creation would be nice to see and test; have at it.
Kiel.ssr (4.93 KB)
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Post by gornik on Jun 18, 2015 10:29:43 GMT -6
The drawing of Drie Roemer is nice, but looks far too modern. WW1 capital ships looked nothing like that. Take the rake off the funnels, give her a clipper bow (like the New Mexico's, though it's more likely to be a plough bow tbh), and add a mainmast and then you might have something from late WW1. As it is atm, it looks more like a 30's vintage ship. You are right, this program seem to be designed to the period of 1930 but for me it was the only possibility to visualise ship easily.
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Post by gornik on Jun 18, 2015 11:24:07 GMT -6
I’ve uploaded Behemoth2 design
1. Removed all 6 inch secondary guns 2. Added one twin mount, centerline 12 in gun that can fire both sides as per HMS Neptune. Ship now has 10 x 12 in 45 caliber guns. 3. Increased speed to 24 knots.
My next mod may be to add a second twin mount centerline. This will provide Behemoth with 12 x 12 inch. 45 caliber guns. Possibly a speed increase depending on power requirements.
I've tested new Behemoth. She is mighty opponent! CA's don't have any chance against her. Though in 1x1 battles Behemoth-2 sometimes suffer heavy damage, in 3x3 sise they decimated opponents without any risk. But I managed to design mad ship with Roemer scheme, which is at least as mush effective: Craan op Waht battlecruiser (laid down 1906 in Springsharp) has only 8x11" guns in non-optimal positions and slightly better speed and protection, but strangely this was enough to win 3/4 battles (though with heavy damage ) Craan test.rar (5.44 KB) The worst problem of Behemoth is her turrets. Here is their typical view in the middle of battle (In the right there is smaller 10x10" experimental design Onbevreesd (Fearless) She was good in 1x1 battles, but in 3x3 loose half of them) And don't forget about flash fires! Also tested 3x3 battles with Orfey-class DD flotilla. DD's have very good time, attacking these ships, while their main guns are busy with stronger opponents, so they need much better (and brave) escort, than usually. Many test battles were won after 1-2 short distance torpedo hit, so some secondaries should be at any ship, I think. Another game note: seem that difference between 10" and 11" guns are much higher than between 11" and 12" ones. Maybe because 10" treated as "medium"?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 18, 2015 12:43:46 GMT -6
I’ve uploaded Behemoth2 design
1. Removed all 6 inch secondary guns 2. Added one twin mount, centerline 12 in gun that can fire both sides as per HMS Neptune. Ship now has 10 x 12 in 45 caliber guns. 3. Increased speed to 24 knots.
My next mod may be to add a second twin mount centerline. This will provide Behemoth with 12 x 12 inch. 45 caliber guns. Possibly a speed increase depending on power requirements.
I've tested new Behemoth. She is mighty opponent! CA's don't have any chance against her. Though in 1x1 battles Behemoth-2 sometimes suffer heavy damage, in 3x3 sise they decimated opponents without any risk. But I managed to design mad ship with Roemer scheme, which is at least as mush effective: Craan op Waht battlecruiser (laid down 1906 in Springsharp) has only 8x11" guns in non-optimal positions and slightly better speed and protection, but strangely this was enough to win 3/4 battles (though with heavy damage ) The worst problem of Behemoth is her turrets. Here is their typical view in the middle of battle (In the right there is smaller 10x10" experimental design Onbevreesd (Fearless) She was good in 1x1 battles, but in 3x3 loose half of them) And don't forget about flash fires! Also tested 3x3 battles with Orfey-class DD flotilla. DD's have very good time, attacking these ships, while their main guns are busy with stronger opponents, so they need much better (and brave) escort, than usually. Many test battles were won after 1-2 short distance torpedo hit, so some secondaries should be at any ship, I think. Another game note: seem that difference between 10" and 11" guns are much higher than between 11" and 12" ones. Maybe because 10" treated as "medium"?
I've replaced the 6 inch guns with 4 inch 45 and 200 rounds of ammo. Higher rate of fire and dual purpose. They can be used in a AAA situations, should they occur.
Behemoth.ssr (5.27 KB)
Keep in mind, these ships are designed to operate with squadron and a fleet. That is how they should be tested.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 18, 2015 15:09:41 GMT -6
I've decided that Behemoth needs a C Class light cruiser for scouting and torpedo attacks. Here is my version of the HMS Calliope circa 1913.
HMSCalliope.ssr (5.09 KB)
She is a 28.5 knot cruiser, with torpedo tubes, 4 x 6 inch guns, 8 x 4 inch guns and does have respectable armor for her size. Have at it.
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Post by gornik on Jun 21, 2015 15:12:18 GMT -6
I've decided that Behemoth needs a C Class light cruiser for scouting and torpedo attacks. Here is my version of the HMS Calliope circa 1913.
She is a 28.5 knot cruiser, with torpedo tubes, 4 x 6 inch guns, 8 x 4 inch guns and does have respectable armor for her size. Have at it. I've just tested Calliope-she is good for scout and flotilla leading tasks-hard opponent to sink, may fire at 2 opponents in one time, also has mighty torpedoes (all my ships sunk by them got one or more) However she can't perform tasks independently due to her light and nearly unprotected guns (main problem of Arethusas and early C-class in North sea campaign) As my ships are designed for Neverland which is poorer than Britain, I try to design more universal ships, so my CL Walrus has 10x6" and coal boilers in the cost of additional 1000 tons displacement: Walrus.ssr (4.83 KB) (In fact, she is no more than "improved Town" ) BTW, am I correct, that your Calliope should have 2 double-gun full turrets? (this place in your ccr is unclear) Tomorrow I'll try to test Kiel you posted before
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Post by gornik on Jun 22, 2015 12:36:19 GMT -6
I've found a design for a light battlecruiser laid down in Germany in 1905 on a blog. I used it to design my own light battlecruiser named the kiel. I think you will find it an interesting design. She will do 31knots. The design can be applied to the British. A DesignShip2 ship creation would be nice to see and test; have at it.
Kiel is tested, and she is strange ship. On the one hand, she is protected well enough to operate in dangerous waters, armed well enough to force enemies keep distance, and fast enough to evade stronger opponents. On the other hand... she can't kill armoured enemy! She should keep distance from anything larger than CL, to stay out of secondaries effective range, so her mighty guns have small chance to hit enemy. Even the oldest battleship may block her way and has good chance to survive with medium damage. However, with increased range Kiel can be ideal convoy flagship/raider hunter, which may kick away any opponent smaller than BC And for fleet purposes I think it would be better to build your last Behemoth design (tested as well) with increased to 20 000 displacement, speed and turrets protection Now, I'll think a bit about destroyers, though it is hard to imagine better designs than V&W or Novik
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 22, 2015 13:02:40 GMT -6
I've found a design for a light battlecruiser laid down in Germany in 1905 on a blog. I used it to design my own light battlecruiser named the kiel. I think you will find it an interesting design. She will do 31knots. The design can be applied to the British. A DesignShip2 ship creation would be nice to see and test; have at it.
Kiel is tested, and she is strange ship. On the one hand, she is protected well enough to operate in dangerous waters, armed well enough to force enemies keep distance, and fast enough to evade stronger opponents. On the other hand... she can't kill armoured enemy! She should keep distance from anything larger than CL, to stay out of secondaries effective range, so her mighty guns have small chance to hit enemy. Even the oldest battleship may block her way and has good chance to survive with medium damage. However, with increased range Kiel can be ideal convoy flagship/raider hunter, which may kick away any opponent smaller than BC And for fleet purposes I think it would be better to build your last Behemoth design (tested as well) with increased to 20 000 displacement, speed and turrets protection Now, I'll think a bit about destroyers, though it is hard to imagine better designs than V&W or Novik Kiel was designed to be a cruiser leader, to provide the scouting and cruiser force with a fast flotilla or squadron leader with extensive radio equipment and radio detection room for intelligence during combat operations.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 22, 2015 13:04:49 GMT -6
I've decided that Behemoth needs a C Class light cruiser for scouting and torpedo attacks. Here is my version of the HMS Calliope circa 1913.
She is a 28.5 knot cruiser, with torpedo tubes, 4 x 6 inch guns, 8 x 4 inch guns and does have respectable armor for her size. Have at it. I've just tested Calliope-she is good for scout and flotilla leading tasks-hard opponent to sink, may fire at 2 opponents in one time, also has mighty torpedoes (all my ships sunk by them got one or more) However she can't perform tasks independently due to her light and nearly unprotected guns (main problem of Arethusas and early C-class in North sea campaign) As my ships are designed for Neverland which is poorer than Britain, I try to design more universal ships, so my CL Walrus has 10x6" and coal boilers in the cost of additional 1000 tons displacement: (In fact, she is no more than "improved Town" ) BTW, am I correct, that your Calliope should have 2 double-gun full turrets? (this place in your ccr is unclear) Tomorrow I'll try to test Kiel you posted before You are correct, 4 x 6 in guns on two twin mounts, one forward and one aft.
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Post by gornik on Jun 22, 2015 13:37:24 GMT -6
Kiel is tested, and she is strange ship. On the one hand, she is protected well enough to operate in dangerous waters, armed well enough to force enemies keep distance, and fast enough to evade stronger opponents. On the other hand... she can't kill armoured enemy! She should keep distance from anything larger than CL, to stay out of secondaries effective range, so her mighty guns have small chance to hit enemy. Even the oldest battleship may block her way and has good chance to survive with medium damage. However, with increased range Kiel can be ideal convoy flagship/raider hunter, which may kick away any opponent smaller than BC And for fleet purposes I think it would be better to build your last Behemoth design (tested as well) with increased to 20 000 displacement, speed and turrets protection Now, I'll think a bit about destroyers, though it is hard to imagine better designs than V&W or Novik Kiel was designed to be a cruiser leader, to provide the scouting and cruiser force with a fast flotilla or squadron leader with extensive radio equipment and radio detection room for intelligence during combat operations. Ah, so she should be "eyes and ears of the fleet"! Yes, in this role she is very good too.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 22, 2015 13:46:04 GMT -6
I've designed a destroyer of the V class titled Valhalla2. Unfortunately, Springsharp doesn't handle destroyer designs well, but It's a good design.
Valhalla2.ssr (3.98 KB)
As I stated in an earlier post, I decide on the primary and secondary mission of the class, then decide the best characteristics for it, then develop the specifications and create the class in Springsharp.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 22, 2015 15:38:07 GMT -6
I've redesigned the Valhalla2 and lowered the speed to 31 knots. I've changed her hull configuration and increased the gun size to 5 inch. She is now 350 ft. x 37 ft. x 13 with a displacement of 3175 tons. She now is a "design well balanced for a light fast combatant", which was the goal.
Valhalla2.ssr (4.02 KB)
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Post by gornik on Jun 24, 2015 16:12:37 GMT -6
I've redesigned the Valhalla2 and lowered the speed to 31 knots. I've changed her hull configuration and increased the gun size to 5 inch. She is now 350 ft. x 37 ft. x 13 with a displacement of 3175 tons. She now is a "design well balanced for a light fast combatant", which was the goal.
Valhalla looks great, though she is fat But it seem to be Springsharp problem, not her. After some experiments with modelling real DD's (Swift, Shakespeare, G-101, Novik, 30-knotters) I recognised that problem with fuel/machinery weight is worse than in larger designs, especially with oil boilers. All ships were treated as overweighted. I decided to cut their cruise speed for 5-6 knots and final result looked much better, so I think I'll do the same thing with my fictional designs. For now, I created earlier designs with coal boilers, and here is the first - Lont op Kruitvat (Wick on Gunpowder): Lont op Kruitvat.ssr (4.05 KB) Specification was to create "destroyer of destroyers" with minimal possible displacenent and torpedo attacks possibility. So she may fight with any DDs of that time and win in 1:2 ratio if opponents wouldn't decide to run out. Usually first hit harm enemies enough to reduce speed, second stops, forth sinks them. Also may scratch small cruisers, especially in night close action. Lont is larger than her contemporaries (1900-1905 torpedo boats) and much better armed, so in old classification she is "torpedo gunboat" or "torpedo cruiser". Another project of her had 3x3" guns and 30 knots speed, but her only advantage was better pursuit ability and disadvantage of smaller calibre cause battle prolongation. Also created her "mad" version with 8x3" guns, but I can't imagine, how all this may fit into 80x8, and her effectiveness didn't increase much
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