|
Post by bcoopactual on Jan 26, 2017 10:47:18 GMT -6
Is level 4 torpedo protection necessary with that much speed? It might be if you get caught in a mission at night or in bad weather where the enemy appears right on top of you. Launches within 5,000 yards during that tech period would have 38 knot torpedoes.
|
|
|
Post by fwskungen on Feb 7, 2017 8:24:44 GMT -6
Well this is my First Real nice Dreadnought the first one is how it started out with basically just upgraded for better fire control This next is a rebuild to try and keep it (somewhat)relevant even later in game id like your comments on this the build was kinda planned out for this from the get go as Germany keeps having somewhat of a hard time getting the bigger guns in a decent time frame.
|
|
Roumba
Junior Member
Posts: 88
|
Post by Roumba on Feb 7, 2017 13:28:43 GMT -6
I approve of: + 14" and 17" guns, they hit my personal taste for rate of fire and penetration and give good rebuild options + Ammunition amounts, though you can safely get away with 105 for the 17"s if you really needed tonnage for other things + Many low caliber (+1) secondaries + General armor design/layout
I am unfamiliar with and/or are wary of: - BBs of 20kts or less that aren't parts of legacy fleets - Allocating even MORE tonnage to torpedoes as part of a BB refit that could have gone towards thickening the... - Main gun turrets with an armor of 14 in an era of 17" armed ships. you were replacing the turrets anyway, beef them up a bit
My suggestions: * Consider using a V aft main turret instead of X. It weighs less and the only thing you sacrifice is the ability to use cross-firing turrets, which you did not use anyway. * Condense your armored secondaries into the largest turret tech you have, you clearly had 3-gun turret tech as your main guns are in triple turrets. This reduces the overall armor required for the same number of secondaries.
Also, when did this boat start building? I assume had not researched All-or-Nothing at that point, right?
|
|
|
Post by fwskungen on Feb 7, 2017 14:47:53 GMT -6
I approve of: + 14" and 17" guns, they hit my personal taste for rate of fire and penetration and give good rebuild options + Ammunition amounts, though you can safely get away with 105 for the 17"s if you really needed tonnage for other things + Many low caliber (+1) secondaries + General armor design/layout I am unfamiliar with and/or are wary of: - BBs of 20kts or less that aren't parts of legacy fleets - Allocating even MORE tonnage to torpedoes as part of a BB refit that could have gone towards thickening the... - Main gun turrets with an armor of 14 in an era of 17" armed ships. you were replacing the turrets anyway, beef them up a bit My suggestions: * Consider using a V aft main turret instead of X. It weighs less and the only thing you sacrifice is the ability to use cross-firing turrets, which you did not use anyway. * Condense your armored secondaries into the largest turret tech you have, you clearly had 3-gun turret tech as your main guns are in triple turrets. This reduces the overall armor required for the same number of secondaries. Also, when did this boat start building? I assume had not researched All-or-Nothing at that point, right? 1. 20 knts is slowish i dint wanna replace the engine and i have weight issues to get it much faster 2. torpedoes i think your right i want more torpedoes but there are weight issues need more tinkering 3. 14" is what i had on it from before not sure where to get the extra weight will test more * 1 V turret ahh nice one i was unaware/did not look at numbers when making ship that this one was heavier * i think your right about this as well haven't been thinking about it that way tested it in game and found that with your improvements i can either get +1 knot or 1" extra turret armor (this is with V turret and replacing engines) on the ammo side i think you need to look again it was 115 not 105 this is what i came up with this time around +1 knots (not everything in the world) + 1 " of turret armor + 1 torpedo tube each side - 10 ammo - 0.5 inches on secondaries - 10 ammo to your number of 105 getting higher speed is possible(not to costly) if one don't up the turret armor what you think about armor for secondaries? 3 vs 2.5?
|
|
|
Post by fwskungen on Feb 7, 2017 14:49:24 GMT -6
oh and yes all or nothing armor was not done when ship was laid down in 1915
|
|
|
Post by axe99 on Feb 7, 2017 16:05:42 GMT -6
Nice BB fwskungen . Looks good to me, although (as below shows), I don't mind 'more smaller' guns in some circumstances (next game, I'm going to trial a ship with 14-16 or more 13-14" guns - as many as I can cram on at 21 knots. I don't find slower BBs a disadvantage as long as they're tough with lots of guns - late game, all those knots for the faster BBs come at the expense of a fair bit of tonnage, and after a few shots there's a fair chance the enemy battle line'll drop down to 20 anyways. It can end badly though if you're outnumbered in good weather and night's a long way off. As Roumba said, those turrets are a little thin on protection, and turret explosions can ruin a big ship's day pretty quickly. Here's something I'd been meaning to try for a while - a 'what if' the Belfast/Edinburgh's went with those quadruple 6" turrets (and they worked....) The US was building 15K CAs at this point, which is why she's as heavy as she is. Of course, the only CA she runs into is this poor sucker - this is how a 10K 9" guns and a bit less armoured CA fared. Amphritite took some damage, but once it got a broadside on the Huntingdon, it shredded it. The dangerous bit is closing to within range, as there's a fair range disadvantage.
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Feb 8, 2017 7:59:42 GMT -6
Nice BB fwskungen . Looks good to me, although (as below shows), I don't mind 'more smaller' guns in some circumstances (next game, I'm going to trial a ship with 14-16 or more 13-14" guns - as many as I can cram on at 21 knots. I don't find slower BBs a disadvantage as long as they're tough with lots of guns - late game, all those knots for the faster BBs come at the expense of a fair bit of tonnage, and after a few shots there's a fair chance the enemy battle line'll drop down to 20 anyways. It can end badly though if you're outnumbered in good weather and night's a long way off. As Roumba said, those turrets are a little thin on protection, and turret explosions can ruin a big ship's day pretty quickly. Here's something I'd been meaning to try for a while - a 'what if' the Belfast/Edinburgh's went with those quadruple 6" turrets (and they worked....) The US was building 15K CAs at this point, which is why she's as heavy as she is. Of course, the only CA she runs into is this poor sucker - this is how a 10K 9" guns and a bit less armoured CA fared. Amphritite took some damage, but once it got a broadside on the Huntingdon, it shredded it. The dangerous bit is closing to within range, as there's a fair range disadvantage. Oooh, I would like to put that up against a prototype heavy cruiser I built recently in my current game. Now I want multiplayer battle arena's for RTW 2. Looks like she's at least a generation older than yours (Commissioned in 1921, it's currently 1922 (100% Research Rate) and I haven't researched advanced directors yet.) She's slower but a thousand tons heavier. Would be interesting to see if her 8 inch guns could do significant damage before you got in close with the 6 inch guns since you can control the range. Although 8 inch guns are nothing to sneeze at in close either. She blew up a 35,200 ton 12x16" armed British battlecruiser because it was a night battle and she put an 8 inch round through the Y turret as soon as she made contact because the range was so short. And of course it helped that those particular BC's were archetypal glass cannons. Minneapolis R 1920.10d (5 KB) [Edit - I forgot to mention they both took torpedo hits in that night action. Minneapolis took two. They are fitted with TPS level II but both suffered heavy flooding. Minneapolis read 100% damage on the main screen but that was a combination of structural and flooding I think. She managed to steam under her own power to a friendly base in France. (The fight took place in the English Channel). I've come to believe that the Damage Control techs in the game are seriously underrated.]
|
|
|
Post by director on Feb 8, 2017 10:37:21 GMT -6
bcoopactual - There is something nice about the classic American heavy cruiser - 9x8" guns and all that. I approve of the heavy armor but would probably have dropped her a knot to 28 and lightened the displacement. axe99 - that is a fearsome mincing machine. I agree with your concern about the range disparity - if the enemy runs (which he always does) then you'll take some damage while you close (if you can). But if the enemy comes in range, he'll get shredded. I always like more firepower LOL. fwskungen - I do love it when I get to put 12x14" on a BB. I agree that two additional knots would have been better, but sometimes speed involves too many compromises. Did the 4" secondary battery work out for you? I prefer a 5" myself - I think the 4" lacks punch and the 6" is too heavy to pack on as many as I like.
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Feb 8, 2017 10:51:09 GMT -6
I couldn't afford to make her smaller or slower. Most of the recently commissioned BC's and all of the one's building I've received intel on have 29 knot speeds. 30 knots seems to be a bit of a threshold right now for the larger ships (above DD sized). I take that back. The Russians' latest CL is listed at 30 knots so I bet their new 44,000 ton battlecruiser under construction is too. Dang Ruskies. This is the current generation I am building. The St. Louis class is an update I decided to build since I had some success with the Minneapolis class. A little larger with more armor and four more 5 inch guns. Price point wise these proto-heavy cruisers are 1.5 times the price of my CL's and a little less than half the cost of my battlecruisers so I think they slot in nicely. Of course they are not half as capable as their concurrent generation of battlecruisers, the Antietam class so maybe it's a fool's bargain but I can't afford to build four Antietam's. This lets me get more ships capable of defeating light cruisers in the water than I would be able to otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Feb 8, 2017 11:35:46 GMT -6
what you think about armor for secondaries? 3 vs 2.5? For my money fwskungen , I would stick with 2.5 inches. That's enough for splinter protection and at that time in game with updated AP techs even 5 inch shells can penetrate 3 inches at 8,000 yards so 3 inches isn't buying a lot more protection for the weight. That's the disadvantage of triple turrets for your secondaries. You save weight by combining them in one mount but you will lose a lot of guns at one time for each hit on them and armoring them to protect against that is prohibitively heavy. I wouldn't worry about losing the secondaries too much though. They are obviously not that monster's raison d'ĂȘtre.
|
|
|
Post by ddg on Feb 8, 2017 12:19:45 GMT -6
I can't remember if 2.5 is necessary for fully-enclosed mounts. If so, I'd stick with 2.5. Otherwise I'd drop it to 2" for splinter protection. Armoring secondaries against anything larger is a losing game after the early years.
|
|
|
Post by axe99 on Feb 8, 2017 15:04:38 GMT -6
Looks like she's at least a generation older than yours (Commissioned in 1921, it's currently 1922 (100% Research Rate) and I haven't researched advanced directors yet.) She's slower but a thousand tons heavier. Would be interesting to see if her 8 inch guns could do significant damage before you got in close with the 6 inch guns since you can control the range. Although 8 inch guns are nothing to sneeze at in close either. She blew up a 35,200 ton 12x16" armed British battlecruiser because it was a night battle and she put an 8 inch round through the Y turret as soon as she made contact because the range was so short. And of course it helped that those particular BC's were archetypal glass cannons. [Edit - I forgot to mention they both took torpedo hits in that night action. Minneapolis took two. They are fitted with TPS level II but both suffered heavy flooding. Minneapolis read 100% damage on the main screen but that was a combination of structural and flooding I think. She managed to steam under her own power to a friendly base in France. (The fight took place in the English Channel). I've come to believe that the Damage Control techs in the game are seriously underrated.] Aye, the Amphritite's were a 1928 model (70 per cent research rate - but it seemed to be a 'quick' 70 per cent), so it wouldn't be a fair contest. That armour though would mean Amphritite would need to get in fairly close to cause damage, and those 9 x 8s wouldn't make the journey a pleasant one. That's a pretty impressive performance by the CA at night - taking out something more than twice its size not using torpedoes is always a win I suspect a multiplayer battle arena would be a bit too much for the devs, but what would be cool would be an 'battle arena' set up where people could send their designs to each other. If you had an 'observer' mode (with observer control over speed and still getting log results), you could AI vs AI different ship designs and see how they go. CA vs CL wise, I deliberately emphasised CAs over CLs to take on CLs this game, and it worked out quite well most of the time. A tad expensive though. director - I'm definitely pro-firepower when it comes to every other class (I managed to get a 4x2 5" armed DD in this game with 8TT - it still made 33 knots, and was a nasty customer), but I like my CLs and CAs to have a bit of speed on them (which, given I also like firepower, tends to mean fewer expensive cruisers, but it seems to work out most of the time).
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Feb 8, 2017 15:24:40 GMT -6
Well, most of the credit there goes to the randomness of it ending up being a night time encounter in the late game. 1922 8 inch (+1) gun at 5,000 yards can penetrate 12.3 inches. That'll do for many Anglo style battlecruiser designs. Lucky hit really. But I was pleasantly surprised at how durable they were in that encounter. Yeah, I realize that multiplayer is beyond the scope of the game. It was never a serious suggestion. I wonder if they could implement a ship design file swapping function where they track more of the tech levels in the ship design files (right now I think it just records Machinery Development Level as EDL) so you could download a file that a player posted and drop the file in the save game folder and the AI could use it (modified as necessary by the AI to make it legal based on the actual game tech levels). Probably a lot more complicated to program than it sounds in my head. I can't remember if 2.5 is necessary for fully-enclosed mounts. If so, I'd stick with 2.5. Otherwise I'd drop it to 2" for splinter protection. Armoring secondaries against anything larger is a losing game after the early years. Assuming the Manual is accurate on this I believe you are right. Here is the applicable section of the manual.
|
|
|
Post by ikahime on Feb 8, 2017 17:12:55 GMT -6
I always like to try and build my first Dreadnought based on the B41 design that would eventually become the Kongo class battle-cruiser. I got the idea from playing world of Warships, where it's known as Myogi. This turret configuration allows for weight efficient broadside firepower, and also allows a scouting battle-cruiser to adequately defend itself while running away. I don't know why aft centerline superimposed is so light compared to other superfiring arrangements, but it seems like a sensible choice for a navy that isn't quite sure if super-firing is safe or not. Rear superifiring keeps the center of mass low, and the wide spacing between the two rear turrets minimizes backblast worries. The design flaw of course, is that it's lack for forward firepower makes it sub-optimal at preforming the battle-cruiser's other role, bullying cruisers. If it's fast enough it can tail the enemy at an angle, but this little bugger is almost as fast as I am.
|
|
|
Post by ikahime on Feb 8, 2017 19:53:07 GMT -6
I'm having fun with my new toy, the DDs had a busy time picking up all the survivors. "Are they gone yet?"
|
|