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Post by director on Dec 23, 2017 16:19:45 GMT -6
My tendency is not to build a lot of BCs - I find the older ones age quickly and fare badly against newer enemy ships. Once I do build them, I like a nine-gun (3x3) main battery with emphasis on belt and deck armor. If the speed is around 27-28 knots I'm happy. My 'classic' BB design in late game has a 12 or 15 gun battery; I prefer 12x16" but 15x15" will do... One game I adopted a house rule of not going past the 14" weapon and was still able to win engagements with 12x14" BCs and 18x14" BBs. 'Spray and pray' will work if you accept that you will disable but not sink enemy ships by gunfire. Since I always maximize torpedo and light craft research, my DDs are usually up to taking out the cripples. And good heavens, the hits you can land with half-a-dozen ships firing 15 to 18 main guns...
Now, I prefer a good 16"... but an all-14" fleet did work quite acceptably.
One late game I took my BC strategy back to 30k-ton ships with 11" or 12" guns. They were able to handle cruisers, run from big enemy BCs and be purchased in bulk. We all like to match the enemy 'big boys' (or at least I do) but there is something to be said for using cheaper BCs too.
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Post by chris19delta on Dec 29, 2017 10:24:44 GMT -6
USS Juneau, Large CL 8000 tons of American Steel Something similar to this is my default 1900 cruiser design, will get put into battles with 2-3 enemy CLs and win easily. The AI doesn't build their own large light cruisers and the 2 or 3 v 1 fights you get rapidly wear down enemy cruiser numbers. In my recent US play through the Juneaus were in frontline service until 1922, when they moved to raiding/trade protection duties and even then were the equal (other than in terms of speed) of any CL in service anywhere and could have continued in that role well into the 1930s. My AAR Thread has a number of posts covering the design, including an in depth review of the class at the end of page 2.
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Post by cabusha on Jan 13, 2018 3:37:02 GMT -6
Been playing the Tropico mod for RTW (10% research, historical resources, large fleets, variable tech). It's been highly amusing so far keeping El Presidente happy. Anyway, 1918, the political arms race was at full-bore, leaving Tropico hopelessly falling behind the European powers. With tensions escalating, a brilliant plan was devised! We shall trick persuade the Western powers to scrap slow down their ship building so we can catch up in the name of peace! El Presidente, charismatic as always, soon had the world gripped in a 7-year treaty, limiting all nations to 20,000 tons and no more than 12" guns! Screams were heard across the world as shipyards saw their orders canceled. Unwilling to leave the BB race behind, the Western nations eyed each other and decided to pack as many 12" guns onto 20K BBs as they could. When the Minister of the Navy presented El Presidente with a similar proposal, why, El Presidente had him thrown out the window! No, he was a man for speed, who lived fast and drove his imported Italian sports car down the narrow streets to see the children laugh as they dodged out of the way! He would inspire the people with greatness! Yes, a man of speed and daring he was, and he demanded his new flagships be the fastest ships in the world!!!! And thus the Invicto class was born. Two were laid down in 1918, but El Presidente liked them so much, he demanded two more be built! The people of Tropico gladly gave up eating twice per day to see these additional ships built. In the mid 20s they proved themselves invaluable during the first war with France. El Presidente laughed from the bridge of the Invicto as the slow French BBs chased him around the Caribbean, eventually leading them to a trap at Haiti. Two of the French BBs were sunk, with El Presidente personally leading a boarding party to destroy the French flagship Magenta. Witnesses say he leapt across the water with a torpedo across his shoulders and plunged it into the deck. The French soldiers were so amazed they laid down their arms and clapped. Inspired by El Presidente's bravery, the Tropico people hopped in their fishing boats and rowed to Cuba and the Virgin Islands, liberating their brothers and sisters in the name of El Presidente!!! It's now 1941 and while none of these ships were lost in battle, a dastardly French plot saw almost the entire class scuttled. French spies infiltrated the Ministry of Navy and forged documents ordering all four ships be scrapped, such was their fear of the Invicto class. As the torches touched the first two ships, the French declared war on Tropico! Thankfully the dock workers took a siesta, so both the Valiente and Invicto were saved once we realized they were no longer in the harbor. And now the Invicto and Valiente once again patrol the Caribbean, bringing pride and glory to Tropico!!! Long live El Presidente!!! **Is it a Super CA? It it a BC?? I dunno, but 20 years later this treaty limit happy accident is still going strong. Just a matter of picking the right fights. Even now most nations are only on 14" guns, so they're not totally out gunned, and in fleet battles I use them for support or to pursue damaged vessels. They've also been fantastic cruiser hunters. For 20K tons, they've been quite the "happy accident". And since I just finally bought Oil Firing from USA, I might just refit them with new engines. And ignore the extra free tonnage, later game research throwing it off. Would've been built with ~100 tons free at launch.**
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Post by rimbecano on Jan 13, 2018 5:12:49 GMT -6
I'll bet you could have squeezed a few more knots out of them with an AB or ABL turret configuration (depending on the availability of triple turrets), eliminating the extended belt and deck, going with a flat instead of sloped deck, and speed priority on the engines.
El Presidente will throw you out the window when he finds out that the ships were not as fast as possible.
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Post by cabusha on Jan 13, 2018 5:50:40 GMT -6
I'll bet you could have squeezed a few more knots out of them with an AB or ABL turret configuration (depending on the availability of triple turrets), eliminating the extended belt and deck, going with a flat instead of sloped deck, and speed priority on the engines. El Presidente will throw you out the window when he finds out that the ships were not as fast as possible. Ooooh, I did not know ABL gave a tonnage advantage. I'd noticed that V did over X, but hadn't seen that for L just yet. I'll have to make a note for El Presidente's next request. Tripple turrets would've definitely been nice for the tonnage saving of AB, but didn't have them yet (10% research game). I do like to keep the 2' on the DE and BE though until I get AON, just for the splinter protection mid game. I've had capital ships before that would have escaped instead take an unlucky hit, triggering the "splinters penetrate uptakes" critical, dropping your speed down enough to be caught. Either way, definitely thanks for the observations!
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Post by brucesim2003 on Jan 13, 2018 7:45:49 GMT -6
Been playing the Tropico mod for RTW (10% research, historical resources, large fleets, variable tech). It's been highly amusing so far keeping El Presidente happy. Anyway, 1918, the political arms race was at full-bore, leaving Tropico hopelessly falling behind the European powers. With tensions escalating, a brilliant plan was devised! We shall trick persuade the Western powers to scrap slow down their ship building so we can catch up in the name of peace! El Presidente, charismatic as always, soon had the world gripped in a 7-year treaty, limiting all nations to 20,000 tons and no more than 12" guns! Screams were heard across the world as shipyards saw their orders canceled. Unwilling to leave the BB race behind, the Western nations eyed each other and decided to pack as many 12" guns onto 20K BBs as they could. When the Minister of the Navy presented El Presidente with a similar proposal, why, El Presidente had him thrown out the window! No, he was a man for speed, who lived fast and drove his imported Italian sports car down the narrow streets to see the children laugh as they dodged out of the way! He would inspire the people with greatness! Yes, a man of speed and daring he was, and he demanded his new flagships be the fastest ships in the world!!!! And thus the Invicto class was born. Two were laid down in 1918, but El Presidente liked them so much, he demanded two more be built! The people of Tropico gladly gave up eating twice per day to see these additional ships built. In the mid 20s they proved themselves invaluable during the first war with France. El Presidente laughed from the bridge of the Invicto as the slow French BBs chased him around the Caribbean, eventually leading them to a trap at Haiti. Two of the French BBs were sunk, with El Presidente personally leading a boarding party to destroy the French flagship Magenta. Witnesses say he leapt across the water with a torpedo across his shoulders and plunged it into the deck. The French soldiers were so amazed they laid down their arms and clapped. Inspired by El Presidente's bravery, the Tropico people hopped in their fishing boats and rowed to Cuba and the Virgin Islands, liberating their brothers and sisters in the name of El Presidente!!! It's now 1941 and while none of these ships were lost in battle, a dastardly French plot saw almost the entire class scuttled. French spies infiltrated the Ministry of Navy and forged documents ordering all four ships be scrapped, such was their fear of the Invicto class. As the torches touched the first two ships, the French declared war on Tropico! Thankfully the dock workers took a siesta, so both the Valiente and Invicto were saved once we realized they were no longer in the harbor. And now the Invicto and Valiente once again patrol the Caribbean, bringing pride and glory to Tropico!!! Long live El Presidente!!! **Is it a Super CA? It it a BC?? I dunno, but 20 years later this treaty limit happy accident is still going strong. Just a matter of picking the right fights. Even now most nations are only on 14" guns, so they're not totally out gunned, and in fleet battles I use them for support or to pursue damaged vessels. They've also been fantastic cruiser hunters. For 20K tons, they've been quite the "happy accident". And since I just finally bought Oil Firing from USA, I might just refit them with new engines. And ignore the extra free tonnage, later game research throwing it off. Would've been built with ~100 tons free at launch.** That is an hilarious post. I can just see El Presedente torpedoing the French. In revenge for the forged documents, he needs to forge some of his own, saying the French have sold a couple of their ships to Tropico (in the middle of the war, no less!)
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Post by bcoopactual on Jan 13, 2018 8:04:41 GMT -6
LOL, Bravo Zulu cabusha. Very funny and well written. I've never played the Tropico games but somehow I feel I understand them completely now.
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Post by rimbecano on Jan 13, 2018 17:04:14 GMT -6
I'll bet you could have squeezed a few more knots out of them with an AB or ABL turret configuration (depending on the availability of triple turrets), eliminating the extended belt and deck, going with a flat instead of sloped deck, and speed priority on the engines. El Presidente will throw you out the window when he finds out that the ships were not as fast as possible. Ooooh, I did not know ABL gave a tonnage advantage. I'd noticed that V did over X, but hadn't seen that for L just yet. I'll have to make a note for El Presidente's next request. Tripple turrets would've definitely been nice for the tonnage saving of AB, but didn't have them yet (10% research game). ABL gives the same short citadel bonus as AB.
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Post by dorn on Jan 27, 2018 4:34:12 GMT -6
I would like to share with you several ship design which I found quite usefull. Destroyer (legacy fleet)
- cheap - ideal early destroyer, later ideal coast patrol ship I found out that 400 tons destroyers in legacy fleet are cheaper, do the same job and for long term are much more cost effective as they are pefect CP ship in middle and late game. Protected cruiser (legacy fleet)- cheap - ideal rider - still formidable firepower I have 3 ships of this class (Montgomery, Detroit, Marblehead), another 2 ships 3,300 tons class. They were the best ship in my fleet and this 5 ships were able to defeat alone the mighty ruler of the seas - UK. There was war between USA and UK from 1906 to 1909. As all my fleet fights to defend coast from blockade, these 5 ships were dispatched to Europe to hunt merchants and were responsible of collapsing UK goverment alone. From these 5 ships of the 2 classes only 1 was sunk (not Montgomery class) in 1911. Remaining ships were scrapped in 1915 as absolute but they were the most effective ships in the fleet and their costs were negligible. 3 ships o this class were able to sink 2 british protected cruisers and none were sink even in dangerous European waters where they operate almost whole career. Battlecruiser (designed in 1920) - thick armor - high speed
The 2 ships of this class Scharnhorst and Gneisenau took first action in convoy defence. The convoy were attacked and 3 divisions were dispatched. The 1st division of 2 battleships of Baden class (4x2x15" guns, 22 knots, 14.5" belt, 3.5" deck, 16" conning tower and turret armor with cost only 111 M), the 2nd division of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, the 3rd division of 2 battlecruisers of Defflinger class (8x14", 12" belt, 14" turret armor, 28 knots), 1 ship of Seydlitz class (10x12", 28 knots, 11" belt and turret armor) try to engage enemy. However the distance to convoy to east was too much for the battleships so 2nd division was dispatched to catch convoy with theirs 31 knots. Firstly these 2 ships intercepted 3 enemy battlecruisers attacking convoy from south and force them to turn around heavily damaged 1 battlecruisers. After they continue to east to intercepted 3 battleships. Their thick armor allow to fight enemy battleships however firepower of 12x15" guns was too small against 3 battleships. Unfortunetly very quickly Japanese battleship hit Sharnhorst was hit and this hit disabled electricity. Gneisenau try to force enemy battleships to fire at her however that cannot be done completely. From NE additional division of 2 battlecruisers appeared and try to engage convoy. Gneisenau again increase speed to 25 knots (that get some damage) and try to engage these 2 older battlecruisers with Scharnhorst remaining dead in water exchanging fire with 3 battleships getting heavy pounding destroying her aft turret. Meantime the divison of 3 Japanese battlecruisers turn around again to N and 3rd division of battlecruisers were dispatch do engage. Meantime when situation with Sharnhorst started getting really bad as hits started to penetrate her armor the 2 Baden class battleships finnaly start engaging enemy battleships and Scharnhorst eletricity was repaired and Scharnhorst was able to make 25 knots. In this time convoy was already saved as all enemy division were under heavy fire. At that battle 3 enemy battleships were sunk with 2 enemy battlecruisers. Only Lutzow of Defflinger class were sunk when struck by lucky torpedo. The save of convoy was mainly due to excelent tactics, crew and quality of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as their speed allow them quickly face the different threats from different direction, their armor was strong enough to fight these threats and their 3x2x15" guns regurarly penetrated enemy armor. They were much more expensive than Baden class battleships however they make very good coopertion with them.
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Post by mobeer on Apr 20, 2018 11:31:29 GMT -6
1905 Invincible Battle-Cruiser- cheap, just 17,000 tons - heaviest available guns and best fire control - protected from 7"+0 guns but vulnerable to late game 8"+1 guns - 27knots with coal from 1906 to 1924 - one major refit in 1924 to use oil firing for 29 knots Capable against early enemy BC but then used mostly to kill CA + CL, which can neither run nor fight. First battle saw these ships sink CA, CL and smaller ships, gaining 1 prestige. Many more victories followed, either in support of newer larger battlecruisers, or alone and engaging raiders. These are the only ships I have ever given a major refit to. Their initial high speed made them worth keeping the entire length of the game (to 1935, at 40% tech). That helped make them much more cost effective than the equivalent battleship designs, which served only until 1920. I did debate replacing them with newer ships having torpedo protection but could never justify the cost involved in replacing them, especially when they cost only 67,200/month when mothballed. Ignore "weight remaining" in the screenshots as these were taken end of game, not as when designed.
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Post by Zapitalist on Apr 24, 2018 14:41:20 GMT -6
Hi guys, greetings from Mother Russia. Sorry for my poor English but I certainly am too old to improve it significantly. Well, I'd like to share my favorite legacy design - an overgunned CA in Courageous-style, somewhat a "Fisher's saber-toothed cat". She's able to sink any CA/CL She meet and She can runaway from any legacy B as well. Her roles are typical for real-history early BCs: mostly fleet reconnaisance and support, as well as counter-raider actions. I never keep these ships after the first "real" (i.e. Dreadnought-style) BCs are commissioned because they seems become too easy prey as for me. But in early game such design is perfectly effective, especially if you play with small/medium fleet size. Here are two layouts. One with short range for narrow seas (A-H best choice ever) and another with medium range and normal accomodation.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 24, 2018 16:44:03 GMT -6
Hi guys, greetings from Mother Russia. Sorry for my poor English but I certainly am too old to improve it significantly. Well, I'd like to share my favorite legacy design - an overgunned CA in Courageous-style, somewhat a "Fisher's saber-toothed cat". She's able to sink any CA/CL She meet and She can runaway from any legacy B as well. Her roles are typical for real-history early BCs: mostly fleet reconnaisance and support, as well as counter-raider actions. I never keep these ships after the first "real" (i.e. Dreadnought-style) BCs are commissioned because they seems become too easy prey as for me. But in early game such design is perfectly effective, especially if you play with small/medium fleet size. Here are two layouts. One with short range for narrow seas (A-H best choice ever) and another with medium range and normal accomodation. Hey, welcome. Interesting designs and very useful. Just a point. With 12 in. guns and the powder plus shells, adding another possible explosive area to the ship seems risky. At the range you will be firing, torpedoes on this type of ship, to me, are useless. I always remove torpedo tubes from heavy cruisers and larger. Its a balance of risk versus reward. Just a thought to consider.
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Post by gornik on Apr 24, 2018 17:51:56 GMT -6
Welcome on board, Zapitalist ! Interesting design, though seem you use different version of game, in my 1.34b Mahairodus is too much overweight, while Smilodon works. Or I've missed something. Anyway, I have bad feeling about this 1 inch deck. I've tried 1,5 inch deck at "coastal defence CAs" and light CL - as a result, many battles were spoiled with machinery damage from splinters.
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Post by Zapitalist on Apr 24, 2018 23:35:00 GMT -6
2 oldpop2000I agree that torpedo tubes are quite useless for this class. I always remove it while the ship is refitting to Central firing control. 2 gornik
I seems to post the wrong picture. Here is the proper one, with ship having short range and cramped rooms. But you're right, I'm using a bit outdated RTW 1.22. 1-inch deck is a necessary evil as well as naked fore/aft ends. There is no any weight reserve in 10.000 ton limit at all. Better I have machinery damaged by splinters than the detonation via 10-inch shell from enemy CA penetrated my belt or turret. Otherwise I should build well-armoured CA but only 22-kt, oversized and overpriced... and still too weak against classic BCs in the mittelspiel (IMHO).
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Post by dorn on Apr 25, 2018 0:33:13 GMT -6
Hi guys, greetings from Mother Russia. Sorry for my poor English but I certainly am too old to improve it significantly. Well, I'd like to share my favorite legacy design - an overgunned CA in Courageous-style, somewhat a "Fisher's saber-toothed cat". She's able to sink any CA/CL She meet and She can runaway from any legacy B as well. Her roles are typical for real-history early BCs: mostly fleet reconnaisance and support, as well as counter-raider actions. I never keep these ships after the first "real" (i.e. Dreadnought-style) BCs are commissioned because they seems become too easy prey as for me. But in early game such design is perfectly effective, especially if you play with small/medium fleet size. Here are two layouts. One with short range for narrow seas (A-H best choice ever) and another with medium range and normal accomodation. Welcome aboard. Quite interesting designs with interesting principle to use it only for fist decade so ship could be fast for her time, strong and still cheap. I have not tried 12" CA yet. Thanks for inspiration I will try it in my legacy fleet. I will not worry about 1" deck armor, as it is sufficient enough for first decade you expect ship will operate. Related to torpedo tubes, I find them quite useful for several years as it is difficult to sink enemy battleships so slow them down and them sink them with torpedo is usually better. I would only think about extended belt armor. Not having any even 3" guns are dangerous to this part of the ship. And as at the start of century if you can hit and sink you need to close distance the medium caliber guns are important damage dealer and have quite an effect. Thus I will consider at least to put armor to protect ship against 6" guns from distance you want to fight. I think it can help survivability of the ship a lot. I have battlecruiser without extended belt and deck armor and even later when usually firing distance is about 10.000-12.000 yards this cause me troubles as light guns guns can do damage.
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