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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 18, 2021 17:40:01 GMT -6
I'd thought I'd heard it said that it was possible for 6" but just very highly improbable. 6" or lighter guns cannot suffer flashfires as secondary guns, but can suffer flashfires (with a reduced probability compared to heavier guns) as main guns. It has to do with the ammunition load and location of the secondary guns. If the secondary guns are not near each other, then their magazines, which are most likely behind the belt and below the armored deck, are relatively safe. |
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f105d
Junior Member
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Post by f105d on Feb 21, 2021 21:43:40 GMT -6
As far as flash fires are concerned, IIRC a 6" gun mounted as part of a secondary or tertiary battery has no chance to cause a flash fire. Above 6" though, that is no longer true. 2" armor for secondary guns is still advisable as it will protect against splinters and small caliber fire. I'd thought I'd heard it said that it was possible for 6" but just very highly improbable. If you would like a good laugh considering earlier you were concerned about the size of the vessels here is one next to the Battleship Bismarck(by Maomatic over on shipbucket)(And this is the general hull size earlier that gave 16x15 and 8x18).  In a scale of 2 pixels per foot. |
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w2c
Full Member
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Post by w2c on Feb 21, 2021 22:37:36 GMT -6
I'm a little confused on the laugh part honestly.  They were definitely impressive designs and a shame my pre 1920 tech wouldn't allow me to build them to my satisfaction. Of course the fact that I was trying to build ships to those specifications so early in the first place is something. I doubt I'll want to build anything with guns bigger than 16's anytime soon, especially seeing as how they're my highest quality big guns (I do have -1 18" and -1 20" guns researched but far too heavy and low quality, and low rate of fire on top of that for me to really consider at this stage) but I figure as my tech improves to reduce weight cost the next logical evolution is to add even more of the 16's into my ships. 12x16's are right around the corner and 16x16's probably not long after. I sadly still haven't been able to use my new ships in battle. At war with Germany but my Elizabeths have yet to see combat (except for one 90 minutes before dusk which ensured I'd be unwilling to risk them so doesn't really count) and my new fast BB's are only 4 months away from starting to become available so hopefully they'll get their chance soon! |
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f105d
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Post by f105d on Feb 21, 2021 22:46:34 GMT -6
I'm a little confused on the laugh part honestly. They were definitely impressive designs and a shame my pre 1920 tech wouldn't allow me to build them to my satisfaction. Of course the fact that I was trying to build ships to those specifications so early in the first place is something. I doubt I'll want to build anything with guns bigger than 16's anytime soon, especially seeing as how they're my highest quality big guns (I do have -1 18" and -1 20" guns researched but far too heavy and low quality, and low rate of fire on top of that for me to really consider at this stage) but I figure as my tech improves to reduce weight cost the next logical evolution is to add even more of the 16's into my ships. 12x16's are right around the corner and 16x16's probably not long after. I sadly still haven't been able to use my new ships in battle. At war with Germany but my Elizabeths have yet to see combat (except for one 90 minutes before dusk which ensured I'd be unwilling to risk them so doesn't really count) and my new fast BB's are only 4 months away from starting to become available so hopefully they'll get their chance soon! Hey that is great and remember to have fun designing your ships and what makes you happy in your fleets. Smart move on not engaging in that night action did that in an Imperial Germany game did not end well for the Mediterranean fleet 1 1920s Battleship down the drain and a 1st gen Battlecruiser. |
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w2c
Full Member
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Post by w2c on Feb 21, 2021 22:55:17 GMT -6
I'm a little confused on the laugh part honestly. They were definitely impressive designs and a shame my pre 1920 tech wouldn't allow me to build them to my satisfaction. Of course the fact that I was trying to build ships to those specifications so early in the first place is something. I doubt I'll want to build anything with guns bigger than 16's anytime soon, especially seeing as how they're my highest quality big guns (I do have -1 18" and -1 20" guns researched but far too heavy and low quality, and low rate of fire on top of that for me to really consider at this stage) but I figure as my tech improves to reduce weight cost the next logical evolution is to add even more of the 16's into my ships. 12x16's are right around the corner and 16x16's probably not long after. I sadly still haven't been able to use my new ships in battle. At war with Germany but my Elizabeths have yet to see combat (except for one 90 minutes before dusk which ensured I'd be unwilling to risk them so doesn't really count) and my new fast BB's are only 4 months away from starting to become available so hopefully they'll get their chance soon! Hey that is great and remember to have fun designing your ships and what makes you happy in your fleets. Smart move on not engaging in that night action did that in an Imperial Germany game did not end well for the Mediterranean fleet 1 1920s Battleship down the drain and a 1st gen Battlecruiser. Oh I'm definitely having fun and learning from you guys as I go. It's fun to explore different possibilities.  And ouch! Yeah I've made the mistake of night battles like that too and paid the price. Was unwilling to do it now even as desperate as I was to give my Elizabeths a shot at some action. Just gotta wait and pray to the battle gen gods that they'll get some soon. lol Edit: I know I need those fast BBs soon though because their new battlecruisers have definitely leveled the playing field with all of mine, including my latest generation ones though that's primarily because they were stuck working with 13 inch guns and they're simply outgunned by what the Germans are working with. My fast BBs will put things back in my favor though. |
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Post by christian on Mar 12, 2021 6:56:24 GMT -6
So i figured i would share this info since i did a few tests on armor schemes for BBs and some people on the discord have been doing very thorough tests
Currently the optimal armor scheme for bbs is sloped deck this is due to the fact that adding 1 inch of DECK armor adds between 1.1-1.4 inches of belt armor depending on range
on top of this BE covers (from what i can find) around half of the superstructure and BE hits have a chance of damaging or destroying the engine (guys on the discord found 3%) if it pens BE
In short with a BB with 7 inches of deck armor and 12 inches of belt you actually have at least 19 inches of effective belt armor MINIMUM
this allows you to add atleast 2 inches to BE though 4 inches if optimal as it stops low caliber AP and high caliber HE
DE is not actually that important as it protects nothing of importance
This prevents BBs from suffering as much structural damage and prevents flooding damage due to BE hits
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geroj
Junior Member
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Post by geroj on Mar 16, 2021 8:46:57 GMT -6
Rate my cruiser  Newer have secondaries in turrets but I cant remember what I lowered to save weight. No idea if to add 2inch of armor to BE and take that from turret or change engines to normal
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Post by hawkeye on Mar 16, 2021 10:14:29 GMT -6
I assume this is a legacy CL? What's the mission of that cruiser? Because the reliable engines seems to indicate use as a raider - which this one is, IMO, way too expensive with way too much firepower. Also, as Germany, I rarely have a use for raiders (I try to avoid a war with Britain (and Italy until I can grab some colonies in the Med from France) and am easily able to blockade Russia or France) If it is meant as a fleet CL (i.e. to fight other cruisers), I would probably go with as many 6" guns as main battery as I can cram into it, since Germany starts with 6" Quality 0 guns and when those are the main battery, they benefit from whatever fire control system the ship has - granted, central range finding doesn't help a lot, but every bit helps and in my experience the up to 4 big guns my CAs mount hit very, VERY rarely due to the "small salvo penalty" So, if I want a cruiser for raiding, I'd probably go with something like the Raider below. Cheap, expendable, does the job and not a lot lost if it goes down If I would want a CL for fleet engagement and cruiser to cruiser combat, I'd go with something as the Combat below. (note, I don't use CL anymore, since they are usually toast when they go up against a CA, so I concentrate on strong, fast CA that can wipe the floor with any legacy cruiser the AI throws at me).   Edit: Darn! I accidentally put 2 inches of belt extended on the combat CL. It's supposed to have 1 inch, which would resolve the overweight. |
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geroj
Junior Member
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Post by geroj on Mar 16, 2021 10:37:04 GMT -6
Yes, legacy China. Problem is there is no way for me to build and fill my fleet with some functional CAs or CLs so I just go with this this C, pre dreds and T boats. It cost almost like your 6-inch one but have +4 much heavier 8 inch guns - good enough to fight CAs and dominate other CLs. And reliable engine is great for coal fueled ships, it takes them longer to slow down
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Post by hawkeye on Mar 16, 2021 11:11:03 GMT -6
Ah, Chin China. Well, enjoy the ride - I hope you like a challenge As for not being able to use CAs (or many of them), the battle generator tries to numerically balance forces in all engagements but fleet battle, so a "quality over quantity" approach is quite viable. In my experience, it's much better to have, say 3 really good CAs than 6 crappy ones - and even China should be able to get a _few_ good CAs. In my recent Germany game (granted, super large fleet), I started with, I think, 7 CA (5 more under construction) and no CL, so I was outnumbered in overall cruisers at least 2 : 1. But half my engagements in any war are some form of cruiser engagements (bombardment, convoy attack, actual cruiser engagements,...) and half of _those_ will thus be one or more of my CA vs. one or more CL of the AI - with predictable results. The other half are my CAs (14,000 tons, 23 knots, 9" main, 6" secondary battery - and yes, they are hideously expensive) vs. some mediocre AI CAs they can easily beat or, if I run into something truly powerful, they have the speed to withdraw. What I learned was that having a few "good" CA and a couple of cheap-ish CA just doesn't work. If you want to go the quality over quantity route, you have to go all out so _all_ your engagements will have you fielding the good stuff vs. the AI's mediocre stuff. |
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Post by janxol on Mar 16, 2021 11:14:35 GMT -6
Also reliable coal engines are a good addition to combat ships, not just raiders. They allow to maintain top speed for longer before problems occur.
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geroj
Junior Member
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Post by geroj on Mar 16, 2021 11:59:11 GMT -6
Ah, Chin China. Well, enjoy the ride - I hope you like a challenge As for not being able to use CAs (or many of them), the battle generator tries to numerically balance forces in all engagements but fleet battle, so a "quality over quantity" approach is quite viable. In my experience, it's much better to have, say 3 really good CAs than 6 crappy ones - and even China should be able to get a _few_ good CAs. In my recent Germany game (granted, super large fleet), I started with, I think, 7 CA (5 more under construction) and no CL, so I was outnumbered in overall cruisers at least 2 : 1. But half my engagements in any war are some form of cruiser engagements (bombardment, convoy attack, actual cruiser engagements,...) and half of _those_ will thus be one or more of my CA vs. one or more CL of the AI - with predictable results. The other half are my CAs (14,000 tons, 23 knots, 9" main, 6" secondary battery - and yes, they are hideously expensive) vs. some mediocre AI CAs they can easily beat or, if I run into something truly powerful, they have the speed to withdraw. What I learned was that having a few "good" CA and a couple of cheap-ish CA just doesn't work. If you want to go the quality over quantity route, you have to go all out so _all_ your engagements will have you fielding the good stuff vs. the AI's mediocre stuff. Why not to push that 14000t CA into 11inch guns, I really had a good experience with large gun heavy cruisers. And yes, I agree, CLs as it is right now are quite useless and I said it some time ago and it sparked controversy over here  , because I got neverending stream of crusier battles and always my CLs vs enemy CAs |
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Post by hawkeye on Mar 16, 2021 12:44:14 GMT -6
Because:
14k tons, 23 knots, 5" belt + turret armor, 11" main guns --> This is a BC, change to BC Y/N --> Y --> Error: Building nation must have two levels of ship design before BC can be built.
Design is not legal!
Edit: I _could_ make it into a 22 knot CA though.
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on Mar 16, 2021 15:41:04 GMT -6
Oh yes, I forgot that ship designer hates fun!
btw protected cruiser sloped armor inside is belt or deck armor?
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Post by cabusha on Dec 3, 2022 20:56:59 GMT -6
 I'm including this ship, the Karnten, built while playing Austria-Hungary, just cause it ended up so darn pretty. I generally auto design until I get something I broadly like, then tweak it. By the time I was done adjusting the ship though, she was larger than the superstructure design, so I scrapped all of it and did the top down view myself. She turned out nice on this one. |
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They were definitely impressive designs and a shame my pre 1920 tech wouldn't allow me to build them to my satisfaction. Of course the fact that I was trying to build ships to those specifications so early in the first place is something. I doubt I'll want to build anything with guns bigger than 16's anytime soon, especially seeing as how they're my highest quality big guns (I do have -1 18" and -1 20" guns researched but far too heavy and low quality, and low rate of fire on top of that for me to really consider at this stage) but I figure as my tech improves to reduce weight cost the next logical evolution is to add even more of the 16's into my ships. 12x16's are right around the corner and 16x16's probably not long after. I sadly still haven't been able to use my new ships in battle. At war with Germany but my Elizabeths have yet to see combat (except for one 90 minutes before dusk which ensured I'd be unwilling to risk them so doesn't really count) and my new fast BB's are only 4 months away from starting to become available so hopefully they'll get their chance soon!
, because I got neverending stream of crusier battles and always my CLs vs enemy CAs
