Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Sept 24, 2020 21:41:27 GMT -6
As I've been reading my book with essays on Battle-cruisers. The author, Richard Worth, does explain many of the names that were applied to such ships. The US Navy gave the Scharnhorst a designation as a cruiser which is kind of amazing but they justified it by noting the gun caliber. He supports our view about what is in a name because all the countries had different nomenclatures for ships what were configured just a little different from the standard battle-cruiser. Fascinating. Stay with us...
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Post by director on Sept 24, 2020 22:15:55 GMT -6
He is. I've been pointing out that making a distinction between battlecruisers and battleships is kinda pointless after, say, the Washington Naval Treaty goes into effect. So excluding 'battlecruisers' and limiting the discussion to 'battleships' is like discussing your favorite shrimp, rather than your favorite seafood. Opening a discussion on capital ships armed with guns larger than 8" would have fit your need.
And please refrain from sarcasm. If you feel the need, PM.
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Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Sept 24, 2020 22:30:23 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on Sept 25, 2020 6:55:20 GMT -6
He is. I've been pointing out that making a distinction between battlecruisers and battleships is kinda pointless after, say, the Washington Naval Treaty goes into effect. So excluding 'battlecruisers' and limiting the discussion to 'battleships' is like discussing your favorite shrimp, rather than your favorite seafood. Opening a discussion on capital ships armed with guns larger than 8" would have fit your need. And please refrain from sarcasm. If you feel the need, PM. Thanks mate, I agree the subject of this could have been a better fit. No problem, we move on.
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Post by cabalamat on Sept 26, 2020 16:58:21 GMT -6
Well, it´s hard not to nominate HMS Warspite. She survived nearly all major engagements in both wars, although standing on Neptunes list! She made it home after Jutland, although heavily damaged (without her jammed rudder, she would have been sunk). She survived several torpedo attacks at Norway (torpedo crisis) while sinking (or helping to sink) the half German DD-fleet, survived the battle of Cape Matapan (with scoring her record hit). She survived the Battle of Kreta with heavy damage. She survived 2 hits from Fritz-X guided bombs near Sicily (should I mention Roma?), was hardly repaired and shelled coastal batteries at the Normandie. And even during her last journey she refused to go without a fight. This ship and her career is pretty impressive! And although USS Nevada has an impressive career by her own, she is no match for HMS Warspite. If only we had kept her as a museum... Dont get me wrong i love the Belfast, but having a Real British battleship especially one as steeped in history as the Warspite, it would be like preserving the HMS Victory all over again. And when they tried to scrap her she made a break for it!
Yes Warspite should have been preserved. The argument against was that Britain was hard up for cash after WW2.
Same for Dreadnought. It's not as if the idea didn't occur to them, because around the same time Dreadnought was being scrapped, Victory and Mikasa were being made into museum ships.
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Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Oct 2, 2020 22:41:17 GMT -6
If only we had kept her as a museum... Dont get me wrong i love the Belfast, but having a Real British battleship especially one as steeped in history as the Warspite, it would be like preserving the HMS Victory all over again. And when they tried to scrap her she made a break for it!
Yes Warspite should have been preserved. The argument against was that Britain was hard up for cash after WW2.
Same for Dreadnought. It's not as if the idea didn't occur to them, because around the same time Dreadnought was being scrapped, Victory and Mikasa were being made into museum ships.
Agreed. IMO it was a national disgrace Warspite wasn't preserved as a museum ship for the nation. Same goes for Dreadnought. The UK lost the title of being "The most powerful nation on earth" relatively quickly, and all empires fall. Without wanting to get political it's obvious the same thing is currently happening to the US. I would rather live in a world where the US is the predominant power rather than say, Russia or China, if only because I associate more with American culture and values than those of the aforementioned nations. Most of my favourite films are foreign films. They're American.
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Warspite
Full Member
Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Oct 2, 2020 23:25:57 GMT -6
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Post by smrfisher on Oct 6, 2020 7:10:58 GMT -6
Whilst I can appreciate the arguments for saving Warspite, I would say that the battleship which the UK should have preserved was Vanguard. She was still in good condition, and by the time she was sent to the breakers, the UK wasn't as financially limited.
Also, you have to consider that Warspite was never fully repaired after the Fritz-X attack in the Mediterranean, and would have required a lot of work to make her hull good for preservation given both the damage and the toll of 2 world wars on her.
Re. Dreadnought, apart from being the first all-big battleship commission she was already obsolete by the First World War and was just taking up displacement which wasn't available post the Washington treaty. She isn't compatible with Victory or Mikasa, as they were saved due to being the Flagship of each nation's pre-eminent naval victories.
If anyone is interested there is a campaign currently underway to try and save HMS Bristol, the Type 82 Destroyer when she is decommissioned.
PS. Belfast only survived as she had twice been extensively modernised and refitted, in the Second World War, and after the Korean War. Also only being about 12,000 tons helps in where she could be put. The other ship which should have been preserved was HMS Eagle R05, but she is one of those strange flying things, not a proper gun ship.
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Post by director on Oct 8, 2020 10:51:02 GMT -6
The US very probably has too many museum ships, and some of the ones we have were preserved because they were available, not because they were historic. The sad truth is that a lot of historic ships were thoughtlessly scrapped, CV-6 Enterprise being one. And while a few cruisers and destroyers were preserved, we have only one from the Dreadnought era - USS Texas. I'd love to be able to visit one of the American (or British) pre-dreadnoughts (yes I know about Mikasa) or one of the American 'Standard' types... or a Tennessee-class cruiser. Or, for that matter, an escort carrier...
USS Salem (CA-139) is on display in her home town of Salem, Massachusetts. Go see her if you can - she's not in great shape, as museum ships require a lot of money for upkeep, but she was a phenomenal design.
I don't think Warspite could have been repaired enough to put her on display - no navy is going to put resources on that scale into a 30+year-old hull. I'd have liked to see one of the QEs preserved - the Queen herself, or Malaya, or whatever ship was best modernized before the war and not lost. The QEs remain one of my favorite designs because they are a great balance of firepower, protection and speed, and they were beautiful ships, too.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 8, 2020 11:43:59 GMT -6
The US very probably has too many museum ships, and some of the ones we have were preserved because they were available, not because they were historic. The sad truth is that a lot of historic ships were thoughtlessly scrapped, CV-6 Enterprise being one. And while a few cruisers and destroyers were preserved, we have only one from the Dreadnought era - USS Texas. I'd love to be able to visit one of the American (or British) pre-dreadnoughts (yes I know about Mikasa) or one of the American 'Standard' types... or a Tennessee-class cruiser. Or, for that matter, an escort carrier... USS Salem (CA-139) is on display in her home town of Salem, Massachusetts. Go see her if you can - she's not in great shape, as museum ships require a lot of money for upkeep, but she was a phenomenal design. I don't think Warspite could have been repaired enough to put her on display - no navy is going to put resources on that scale into a 30+year-old hull. I'd have liked to see one of the QEs preserved - the Queen herself, or Malaya, or whatever ship was best modernized before the war and not lost. The QEs remain one of my favorite designs because they are a great balance of firepower, protection and speed, and they were beautiful ships, too. One of the issues besides the maintenance and upkeep of the ships is finding people have worked on those ships or been stationed on them. They are getting few and far between. The same issue works for the carriers. I was offered a position on the Midway to help with explaining the planes on the deck. I am getting older and its been a while since I worked on most of those aircraft. I did not take the job. It is an on-going problem.
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Post by tbr on Oct 8, 2020 16:33:50 GMT -6
I have been to Mikasa, it is a sad example on how to not preserve the essence of a warship. She has effectively been de-cored, lost the "ship" character and became an oddly shaped building. Ripping out crew accomodations, propulsion and other machinery etc. effectively killed her as a ship (being firmly set in concrete does not help but in itself would not have had this deleterious effect). The only really preserved elements are the radio room, officer's wardroom, flag accomodations and the bridge (which is in the famous picture). One single casemate secondary installation is somewhat complete as well but is missing the connection to the ship in the sense that it is an island in a decored hull.
Compared with HMS Warrior and HMS Victory, let alone USS Constitution Mikasa is a disappointment.
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Post by smrfisher on Oct 9, 2020 6:02:28 GMT -6
I have been to Mikasa, it is a sad example on how to not preserve the essence of a warship. She has effectively been de-cored, lost the "ship" character and became an oddly shaped building. Ripping out crew accomodations, propulsion and other machinery etc. effectively killed her as a ship (being firmly set in concrete does not help but in itself would not have had this deleterious effect). The only really preserved elements are the radio room, officer's wardroom, flag accomodations and the bridge (which is in the famous picture). One single casemate secondary installation is somewhat complete as well but is missing the connection to the ship in the sense that it is an island in a decored hull. Compared with HMS Warrior and HMS Victory, let alone USS Constitution Mikasa is a disappointment. Mikasa was only saved with a special clause in the Washington Naval Treaty by being permanently disarmed and being encased in concrete. The advantage Warrior had was her hull being so well built, it survived being used as a fuel jetty for most of a century, surviving because people had forgotten that she still existed, whilst Victory has been left to ruin and needed major investment to save at least 4 times in her life.
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Post by alexrodgersaf on Oct 9, 2020 15:03:49 GMT -6
USS California
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Post by bobert on Oct 10, 2020 11:59:14 GMT -6
The rebuilt California, West Virginia etc. were great looking ships. Brawny.
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Post by tbr on Oct 11, 2020 5:15:46 GMT -6
I have been to Mikasa, it is a sad example on how to not preserve the essence of a warship. She has effectively been de-cored, lost the "ship" character and became an oddly shaped building. Ripping out crew accomodations, propulsion and other machinery etc. effectively killed her as a ship (being firmly set in concrete does not help but in itself would not have had this deleterious effect). The only really preserved elements are the radio room, officer's wardroom, flag accomodations and the bridge (which is in the famous picture). One single casemate secondary installation is somewhat complete as well but is missing the connection to the ship in the sense that it is an island in a decored hull. Compared with HMS Warrior and HMS Victory, let alone USS Constitution Mikasa is a disappointment. Mikasa was only saved with a special clause in the Washington Naval Treaty by being permanently disarmed and being encased in concrete. The advantage Warrior had was her hull being so well built, it survived being used as a fuel jetty for most of a century, surviving because people had forgotten that she still existed, whilst Victory has been left to ruin and needed major investment to save at least 4 times in her life. It is not primarily about the encasement in concrete but the total removal of propulsion machinery and, apart from Togo's flag cabin and the wardroom, any and all traces of crew life...
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