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Post by tortugapower on Jul 2, 2019 11:37:47 GMT -6
I can't tell exactly if this is a bug (I'm ~95% sure the answer is yes) or if there's a reasonable explanation (always possible!), but I keep getting "friendly ship in line of fire" when there are clearly no ships in line of fire. I'm playing in Captain's mode specifically for controlling torpedoes, but I'm now wondering if these errors are what prevent the AI destroyer divisions from launching in the Admiral modes. Oddly, there are times when I can launch and the torpedoes almost surely will hit a friendly ship, and my friendly DDs can and have launched torpedoes right through (and into) my friendly divisions. I suspect this is not intentionally designed that way, although we can roleplay it as human error (an overzealous DD commander). I bring this to your attention after seeing it for months and months, mainly because there has been a negative outpouring of comments about this on my latest video, where this happened: This is the start of a very close range night fight. Some things to note: 1) There are no friendlies to the south or west of my current group of ships. 2) There are two torpedoes in the water on the left of the screen. Is it possible these torpedoes are counted as friendlies? I'd love to solve this issue, as the only reason I use Captain's mode is to avoid the (well known) frustration of AI handling of torpedo launches. This may also help the enemy AI divisions. Cheers.
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Post by mycophobia on Jul 2, 2019 11:53:58 GMT -6
I have a feeling that the "Unidentified Ship" in question is being treated as a "Possible friendly" that is preventing your launch.
This of course make seems ridiculous given the players knows where all his ships are, but the same cannot be said for the commander at the bridge of the destroyer. In this case I agree the result is fairly absurd since its clear that the "Unidentified ship" is almost certainly part of the US battleline.
However, there are other scenarios where genuine mistakes can occur from the destroyer's perspective. Such as a very messy night battle where all ships got mixed up. To the destroyer captain, the "unidentified ship" could easily be a friendly and it makes sense to withheld fire. When other friendly group are present in the area, its not uncommon for entire enemy line to be mistaken for friendlies as well (Cape Esperence is an excellent example, the Japanese fleet, even when fired upon, still for awhile assumed they are dealing with a friendly transport fleet).
Ofcourse, if the fleet is informed that no other friendlies are present, it may make less sense for them to withheld fire in case like yours, but I feel having the AI consider the overall situation and decide whether your virtual captain decides that an certain unidentified ship could be a friendly is far too complicated. With the current abstraction we do get the occasional odd scenario as seen above, but from a simulation perspective I feel its an acceptable abstraction.
You can always explain your case as while your fleet commander is aware now that the approaching ship are American, your destroyer captain isn't certain and is waiting for a confirmation either from the flagship or his own observer, and is thus refusing to launch. (A RTW turn is only a min, which is actually quite short for the captain to ascertain identify of an enemy and order launch.
But I probably agree with you that "Friendlies in line of fire" should more or less be ignored when you are in captains mode. If the overzealous AI already torpedo your own ship from time to time, you should be able to give the order to just -it and launch as well.
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Post by jishmael on Jul 2, 2019 12:16:29 GMT -6
The thing that makes me sure that something about the friendly ship message/torpedo solutions is bugged is that if you have more than target and you switch back and forth they sometimes change.
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Post by sittingduck on Jul 2, 2019 12:56:59 GMT -6
I've mentioned in another post that I had a ship locked in a collision with an enemy and couldn't launch because of "Friendly Ship in Line of Fire". I don't recall the specifics, but there was definately no friendly between us and I don't remember any friendlies on the far side of the enemy either. I've tried to rationalize other situations as it being "possible" for a friendly to leave the division and dart toward the enemy ship but in many "Friendly Fire" warnings there are no friendlies in the way or behind the enemy. This only happens in Captains Mode, under Player control. I have seen AI ships launch when friendlies are actually blocking LOS, almost alongside, let alone the numerous times Red-on-Red torpedo hits from a distant friendly occur. It doesn't seem that the Friendly Fire warning/criteria applies to AI friendlies, just ships under direct player control.
As a side note, it seems AI ships can launch single torps from a muliple mount and the Player has to launch every tube at once. It would be nice to fire a selected number of tubes instead of all at once...
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Post by arminpfano on Jul 2, 2019 15:08:20 GMT -6
Some remarks and observations regarding this topic (which are true since RTW1):
1) First of all it should be possible to override the warning, regardless if it is true or not. There are quite some situations where it is quite possible to hit a friendly, but nevertheless it makes sense to fire and bear the risk.
2) I get the warning frequently while passing a target (moving or not) with a DD flotilla in line, and really no own ship on the other side of the target. It seems the calculation is somehow done with the worst possible course development of a friendly after firing the torpedo, and the lowest possible torpedo speed. Or some rather big "safety window" is calculated.
3) Sometimes it is possible to click more than once on the target in the torpedo fire window, and the "friendly" warning switches to a solution (and back) if clicked again.
4) Maybe the easiest thing would be a toggle in options to turn off the "friendly" warning system as a whole, for both sides. I guess this would cause some more collateral damage at friendly ships (also historically quite accurate), but maybe the AI torpedo ships would be a force to be reckoned with for the first time. At the moment they are ignorable for the most part (as soon as you have TPS 1).
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Post by kotori87 on Jul 2, 2019 15:50:27 GMT -6
This "Friendly ships in line of fire" issue is a significant breaker of game immersion for me. I have done several rounds of testing to try and figure out how the algorithm works without success. I understand the thought process of failing safe and blocking launch, but it would help immensely if we had 1) clear indication of which ship is triggering the block, and 2) a manual override to launch anyway. This is especially significant since, as we have seen in TortugaPower's series, it does not always prevent friendly fire.
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Post by rodentnavy on Jul 2, 2019 15:55:15 GMT -6
This is especially significant since, as we have seen in TortugaPower's series, it does not always prevent friendly fire. Even the AI seems to enjoy a bit of friendly torpedoing, more than once have seen the pop up "enemy dd/cl hit by torpedo" and quickly scanned my logs only to confirm no one on my side fired any fish.
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Post by stevethecat on Jul 3, 2019 3:50:35 GMT -6
Did put a thread up for a 'friendly in line of fire' override in the suggestions forum.
It can be a bit silly.
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Post by Adseria on Jul 3, 2019 7:49:21 GMT -6
Ofcourse, if the fleet is informed that no other friendlies are present, it may make less sense for them to withheld fire in case like yours Even if you do tell them this, there's still the possibility that it could be a neutral or friendly merchant ship that strayed into the battle at a critical moment. As you say, we know it can't happen, but the commanders of our destroyers might not.
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pcasey
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by pcasey on Jul 3, 2019 10:00:49 GMT -6
Ofcourse, if the fleet is informed that no other friendlies are present, it may make less sense for them to withheld fire in case like yours Even if you do tell them this, there's still the possibility that it could be a neutral or friendly merchant ship that strayed into the battle at a critical moment. As you say, we know it can't happen, but the commanders of our destroyers might not. If you are playing in captains mode though, you, the player, are the captain of the destroyer and presumptively you get to make that call. In admirals or read admiral's mode I'd sort of agree with you, but I'd think that as the admiral of the fleet I could issue a standing order like: We don't expect any neutral ships in the battle area, and our politicians have assured us the can manage the blowback on the off chance one wanders in and we happen to sink it. So weapons free and shoot on sight.
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Post by stevethecat on Jul 3, 2019 12:04:31 GMT -6
We don't expect any neutral ships in the battle area, and our politicians have assured us the can manage the blowback on the off chance one wanders in and we happen to sink it. So weapons free and shoot on sight.
The game doesn't let you fire back or launch torps towards ships that are actively firing at you while they are unindentified, there's a fair bit of tweaking to in the whole 'rules of engagement' area.
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Post by jishmael on Jul 3, 2019 13:09:57 GMT -6
We don't expect any neutral ships in the battle area, and our politicians have assured us the can manage the blowback on the off chance one wanders in and we happen to sink it. So weapons free and shoot on sight.
The game doesn't let you fire back or launch torps towards ships that are actively firing at you while they are unindentified, there's a fair bit of tweaking to in the whole 'rules of engagement' area.
My ships do happily fire on radar blips though
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pcasey
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by pcasey on Jul 3, 2019 14:05:12 GMT -6
The game doesn't let you fire back or launch torps towards ships that are actively firing at you while they are unindentified, there's a fair bit of tweaking to in the whole 'rules of engagement' area.
My ships do happily fire on radar blips though Touche
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Post by Adseria on Jul 3, 2019 17:56:12 GMT -6
Even if you do tell them this, there's still the possibility that it could be a neutral or friendly merchant ship that strayed into the battle at a critical moment. As you say, we know it can't happen, but the commanders of our destroyers might not. If you are playing in captains mode though, you, the player, are the captain of the destroyer and presumptively you get to make that call. In admirals or read admiral's mode I'd sort of agree with you, but I'd think that as the admiral of the fleet I could issue a standing order like: We don't expect any neutral ships in the battle area, and our politicians have assured us the can manage the blowback on the off chance one wanders in and we happen to sink it. So weapons free and shoot on sight. I know. Don't worry, I agree that it needs changing. I'm just saying, from a historical perspective, it makes (some) sense.
I think a good option would be, in the torpedo-launching menu, instead of completely preventing you from firing a torpedo, it still lets you fire, but has a warning if there may be friendlies in the way. A pop-up, or maybe even just a note in the launching window with the "friendlies in line of fire" message you get now.
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Post by mycophobia on Jul 3, 2019 18:55:51 GMT -6
We don't expect any neutral ships in the battle area, and our politicians have assured us the can manage the blowback on the off chance one wanders in and we happen to sink it. So weapons free and shoot on sight.
The game doesn't let you fire back or launch torps towards ships that are actively firing at you while they are unindentified, there's a fair bit of tweaking to in the whole 'rules of engagement' area.
Poor aoba will tell you otherwise....
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