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Post by tortugapower on Jul 4, 2019 13:52:50 GMT -6
The game doesn't let you fire back or launch torps towards ships that are actively firing at you while they are unindentified, there's a fair bit of tweaking to in the whole 'rules of engagement' area.
Poor aoba will tell you otherwise.... I honestly don't know this reference! Did Aoba receive fire from ships who identified her, and she didn't return fire because she wasn't sure if they were friend or foe? |
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Post by yemo on Jul 4, 2019 14:14:39 GMT -6
Poor aoba will tell you otherwise.... I honestly don't know this reference! Did Aoba receive fire from ships who identified her, and she didn't return fire because she wasn't sure if they were friend or foe?
Rear admiral aboard Aoba guessed some ships were Japanese, after lookouts identified them as American. Rear admiral ordered flashing of identification signals, but did not survive American answer.
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Post by mycophobia on Jul 4, 2019 14:33:31 GMT -6
Poor aoba will tell you otherwise.... I honestly don't know this reference! Did Aoba receive fire from ships who identified her, and she didn't return fire because she wasn't sure if they were friend or foe? It’s a perfect example of how confusing night battle can ten out to be, even with radar considered. The japanese column was spotted on radar for over 15min before people figure outted what to do, and even when shots are fired the American admiral still presumed he might be hitting friendlies. Further, the japanese took almost twenty minute of fire without really trying to fire back. Granted this is a fairly extreme scenario, but in rtw terms, imagine if you no longer have vision of any ship in your squadron besides those in your flag ship’s vision range, how confident can you be with firing on some ship that suddenly appeared on your side but is unidentified? The Russian fleet on their way to reinforce the Far East in Russeo japanese war misidentified british fishing boats as attacking torpedo boats, and basically fought amongst themselves for a good 30minutes, with their own cruiser being hit several times(could turn really ugly, thankfully their aim was very poor) As per my original point, I think our perfect view of our squadron really made it hard for us to appreciate the chaotic mess that can happen in real life. While I’d prefer things stay the way they are for gameplay purpose, sometime we have cut our captains some slack. |
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Post by tortugapower on Jul 6, 2019 10:58:28 GMT -6
I think the mechanics of identifying ships and fog of war and all that could be a great one for discussion. However, in this thread I'm most interested in the quirky behavior of the Captain's mode ability to launch torpedoes. The "friendly ship in line of fire" seems to be bugged. I thought this is somewhat-important to think about, because: - it appears not to be working correctly - it is presumably the mechanic used by all the AI ships, thus affecting Rear Adm and Admiral difficulty modes as well In fact, the AI not launching torpedoes is 90% of the reason why I play in Captain's mode. Maybe this explains it.
edit: furthermore, this should be an easy problem to fix. I imagine this just a quick comparison of the vectors of all the ships, and triggers the "friendly ship" if these meet some certain requirement. It should be very easy to fix, from a developer time perspective.
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Post by arminpfano on Jul 7, 2019 3:56:53 GMT -6
I second this strongly. The most frustrating moments in gameplay are when you have gotten yourself in a perfect position for a battle-turning torpedo salvo and then be blocked for no understandable reason.
The easiest and quickest solving would be a toggle in preferences to switch it öff, also for AI.
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Post by BathTubAdmiral on Jul 7, 2019 5:26:08 GMT -6
The most frustrating moments in gameplay ... and then be blocked for no understandable reason. The easiest and quickest solving would be a toggle in preferences to switch it off, also for AI. Obviously, that is not a solution to the problem, because ... - if you generally disable line-to-target checks for torp attacks, that would result in heaps of blue on blue torping. Especially if you consider how the AI commanded DD divs tend to meander about at times ...
- and if you keep those checks for the AI, the AI will still suffer from not being able to drop torps at targets which should actually be valid,
- and there are players do not play in capitain mode, what means their DD divs are most likely AI controlled ...
Even worse, such requests not only mean that developer time that should be spend fixing the bug would be spend adding a button and functionality to hide the bug, they even may prompt the devs to move the issue from "list of bad bugs that need fixing" to "low priority list of some feature requests of arcade gamers". (Have seens this too many times in the last 20 years in game develeopment ... no details, sorry, dont know how long the NDA lasts ... ) |
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Post by rimbecano on Jul 7, 2019 5:36:19 GMT -6
What I really want is for the blocking ship, its path, the torpedo path, and the position of each at closest approach to be displayed (currently the firing solution geometry is only shown when a shot is possible, which is when it's least needed). Torpedo speeds are low enough compared to ships that even a fairly insane looking friendly ship error can turn out to be valid if you think about it really hard, but having to do the geometry in ones head is a pain: it would be really, really helpful if we could check whether the error was bogus or not at a glance. Either it would turn out that we're all just missing non-obvious interferences, or it would turn out that there's actually a bug and we'd have screenshots that showed exactly what was going wrong. Either way, the frustration would go away.
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Post by yemo on Jul 7, 2019 7:41:51 GMT -6
What I really want is for the blocking ship, its path, the torpedo path, and the position of each at closest approach to be displayed (currently the firing solution geometry is only shown when a shot is possible, which is when it's least needed). Torpedo speeds are low enough compared to ships that even a fairly insane looking friendly ship error can turn out to be valid if you think about it really hard, but having to do the geometry in ones head is a pain: it would be really, really helpful if we could check whether the error was bogus or not at a glance. Either it would turn out that we're all just missing non-obvious interferences, or it would turn out that there's actually a bug and we'd have screenshots that showed exactly what was going wrong. Either way, the frustration would go away. Or at least just change the color of the "friendly ships in the way" to red or something, when the firing solution is selected.
That should be relatively easy and at least give the player some indication of what is going on.
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Post by Adseria on Jul 7, 2019 8:56:25 GMT -6
What about if, when a target is selected, the ship(s) that are blocking line of fire are highlighted/named, so that we at least know which ship is blocking the shot. That might make it harder to say it's blocked "for no reason," at least.
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Post by dorn on Jul 7, 2019 13:19:26 GMT -6
It does not mean a friendly ship is blocking. It is that friendly ship is close enough to be dangerous to make a shot.
We have ideal information, top view which is easily to recognize if there is clear shot. However in battle it is much more difficult to recognize it and more safety is needed thus it may seems that there is no friendly target but in reality the evaluation is that there can be risk to hit friendly target.
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Post by jorgencab on Jul 7, 2019 15:20:22 GMT -6
Why not just add a commander mode and just allow to fire the torpedoes whenever you want?
If players want to make the game really easy and unrealistic that is their prerogative to do so, there is no wrong way to play the game.
One important thing to note though is that the game are balanced around the admiral difficulty so you pretty much throw allot of game balance out of wack with allowing these "gamey" tactics to be used. I might sound a bit condescending saying this but that is really not my intention and I apologise in advance if it comes across like that. I just think that it is important that players know where the balance in gameplay is suppose to be.
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Post by BathTubAdmiral on Jul 7, 2019 16:11:55 GMT -6
Why not just add a commander mode and just allow to fire the torpedoes whenever you want? If players want to make the game really easy and unrealistic that is their prerogative to do so, there is no wrong way to play the game. One important thing to note though is that the game are balanced around the admiral difficulty so you pretty much throw allot of game balance out of wack with allowing these "gamey" tactics to be used. I might sound a bit condescending saying this but that is really not my intention and I apologise in advance if it comes across like that. I just think that it is important that players know where the balance in gameplay is suppose to be. Because the problem is not about the player not being able to fire, the problem is about the ships in general not being able to fire, them being on the player or the enemy side. I wonder why this so hard to understand?! |
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Post by yemo on Jul 7, 2019 16:14:37 GMT -6
jorgencabMaybe the modes should get info in brackets to make it clear that those are difficulty settings and not just level of automation settings. Admiral (hard) Captain (easy)
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Post by jorgencab on Jul 7, 2019 17:49:10 GMT -6
Why not just add a commander mode and just allow to fire the torpedoes whenever you want? If players want to make the game really easy and unrealistic that is their prerogative to do so, there is no wrong way to play the game. One important thing to note though is that the game are balanced around the admiral difficulty so you pretty much throw allot of game balance out of wack with allowing these "gamey" tactics to be used. I might sound a bit condescending saying this but that is really not my intention and I apologise in advance if it comes across like that. I just think that it is important that players know where the balance in gameplay is suppose to be. Because the problem is not about the player not being able to fire, the problem is about the ships in general not being able to fire, them being on the player or the enemy side. I wonder why this so hard to understand?! I understand that... my suggestion was a setting to allow the player to fire the torpedoes regardless if the crew find it unsuitable to do so, simply remove that simulation of the game if it cause such problem. If they can't fire the torpedoes for physical restrictions to do so, such as moving too fast for submerged torpedoes that would be a different story. |
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Post by sloanjh on Jul 7, 2019 21:32:56 GMT -6
Because the problem is not about the player not being able to fire, the problem is about the ships in general not being able to fire, them being on the player or the enemy side. I wonder why this so hard to understand?! I understand that... my suggestion was a setting to allow the player to fire the torpedoes regardless if the crew find it unsuitable to do so, simply remove that simulation of the game if it cause such problem. If they can't fire the torpedoes for physical restrictions to do so, such as moving too fast for submerged torpedoes that would be a different story. He's worried about the AI behavior when playing admiral's difficulty. He thinks there's a bug in the algorithms that both the player and the AI use, and that's causing AI-controlled (both for AI side and player side) divisions to be unrealistically over-conservative. So even if they do follow your suggestion and add a captain's mode setting, that doesn't solve (what he fears is) the underlying bug in the AI. In other words, the bug he's worried about (if it's there) affects everyone - it makes admiral's mode more unrealistic (and frustrating) and it makes captain's mode even more unbalanced. Note that personally I always play on admiral's mode, because that lessens the imbalance of me being smarter than the AI. |
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