|
Post by sloanjh on Jul 7, 2019 21:40:09 GMT -6
I understand that... my suggestion was a setting to allow the player to fire the torpedoes regardless if the crew find it unsuitable to do so, simply remove that simulation of the game if it cause such problem. If they can't fire the torpedoes for physical restrictions to do so, such as moving too fast for submerged torpedoes that would be a different story. He's worried about the AI behavior when playing admiral's difficulty. He thinks there's a bug in the algorithms that both the player and the AI use, and that's causing AI-controlled (both for AI side and player side) divisions to be unrealistically over-conservative. So even if they do follow your suggestion and add a captain's mode setting, that doesn't solve (what he fears is) the underlying bug in the AI. In other words, the bug he's worried about (if it's there) affects everyone - it makes admiral's mode more unrealistic (and frustrating) and it makes captain's mode even more unbalanced. Note that personally I always play on admiral's mode, because that lessens the imbalance of me being smarter than the AI. I think it's important in this discussion to disentangle the admiral vs. captain stuff from the "is there a bug in the AI" discussion - I agree that on the admiral vs. captain side giving the player to override is a reasonable fix, but I think the concern is that the suggestion might hide the possibility of an underlying bug. John
|
|
|
Post by jorgencab on Jul 8, 2019 2:42:38 GMT -6
I understand that... my suggestion was a setting to allow the player to fire the torpedoes regardless if the crew find it unsuitable to do so, simply remove that simulation of the game if it cause such problem. If they can't fire the torpedoes for physical restrictions to do so, such as moving too fast for submerged torpedoes that would be a different story. He's worried about the AI behavior when playing admiral's difficulty. He thinks there's a bug in the algorithms that both the player and the AI use, and that's causing AI-controlled (both for AI side and player side) divisions to be unrealistically over-conservative. So even if they do follow your suggestion and add a captain's mode setting, that doesn't solve (what he fears is) the underlying bug in the AI. In other words, the bug he's worried about (if it's there) affects everyone - it makes admiral's mode more unrealistic (and frustrating) and it makes captain's mode even more unbalanced. Note that personally I always play on admiral's mode, because that lessens the imbalance of me being smarter than the AI. Ok... but is it actually proven to be a bug then, my AI captains seem to launch torpedoes just fine for the most part. Playing in admiral difficulty is not as much as being smarter than the AI as it is being part of the simulation and making it a bit more realistic. The player have a godlike view of the battlefield such as a captain or an admiral could ever just dream about in WW2.
|
|
|
Post by tortugapower on Jul 8, 2019 14:53:26 GMT -6
He's worried about the AI behavior when playing admiral's difficulty. He thinks there's a bug in the algorithms that both the player and the AI use, and that's causing AI-controlled (both for AI side and player side) divisions to be unrealistically over-conservative. So even if they do follow your suggestion and add a captain's mode setting, that doesn't solve (what he fears is) the underlying bug in the AI. In other words, the bug he's worried about (if it's there) affects everyone - it makes admiral's mode more unrealistic (and frustrating) and it makes captain's mode even more unbalanced. Note that personally I always play on admiral's mode, because that lessens the imbalance of me being smarter than the AI. Ok... but is it actually proven to be a bug then, my AI captains seem to launch torpedoes just fine for the most part. Playing in admiral difficulty is not as much as being smarter than the AI as it is being part of the simulation and making it a bit more realistic. The player have a godlike view of the battlefield such as a captain or an admiral could ever just dream about in WW2. I agree that the top-down real-time information is more than what any Admiral could expect at this time. But that's not really the point here. (Also, the AI is using the same full picture of information, realistic or not.) Trying to herd this topic back on point: so far, the solutions I see to friendly-fire torpedo issue are: 1) Build a special button/functionality to allow Captain's mode to override these decisions. 2) Change the current friendly-fire decision script. I support either of these, even both of these! It has been and should continue to be emphasized that #2 is a more complete solution, as it may fix some of the finicky AI behavior with torpedoes at the Admiral difficulty settings.
|
|
|
Post by mycophobia on Jul 8, 2019 15:15:25 GMT -6
I support the captain mode override over a full rework, provided the underlying bug(if there is one) is not somehow gamebreaking.
I play mostly on rear-admiral, and besides the over-conservatism with torpedos early game I am quite satisfied with the overall AI performance around torpedo attacks. I rarely notice any odd quirks with the overall torpedo behaviours so I don’t think any change is needed.
Captain mode override makes a lot of sense since it removes what seems to be a unnecessary restriction on captain mode player. But I personally don’t have issues with destroyer behaviours in admiral mode. There is a reason why Jutland Did not simply turn into a destroyer open season and even in Guadalcanal destroyer torpedos did not nearly claim as many ships as player controlled destroyers in captain mode is able to achieve.
AI controlled destroyers may prove frustrating sometime, but they served me well when things goes well, and still acted in a mostly believable manner. Personally I appreciate rtw taking things out of my control, it makes for more interesting scenarios, but to each his own.
|
|
|
Post by jorgencab on Jul 8, 2019 15:43:52 GMT -6
Yes... if it is not some sort of bug... I also agree that captain mode should just allow the player to choose to fire the torpedoes whenever they feel like it. If that is the game one wants to play I do understand that it might be frustrating since it is not really transparent on when and why it happens. It could give a warning of possible friendly fire, but that's it.
|
|
|
Post by BathTubAdmiral on Jul 8, 2019 21:48:49 GMT -6
Yeah, you're really nice folks ... "I want a button to override that bug, screw those people who don't play captain mode!"
I have the suspicion that you won't be happy if you get your button - or do you like to blow up your own ships? Looking at the angle that my DDs launch that torps, which is completely unrealistic for center mounted swivel launchers, it came to my mind that the "friendly ship in the line of fire" might actually be the launching ship ... depending on how the launch angle and path is calculated for 1-/2-tube launchers?!
|
|
|
Post by mycophobia on Jul 8, 2019 23:58:41 GMT -6
Yeah, you're really nice folks ... "I want a button to override that bug, screw those people who don't play captain mode!"
I have the suspicion that you won't be happy if you get your button - or do you like to blow up your own ships? Looking at the angle that my DDs launch that torps, which is completely unrealistic for center mounted swivel launchers, it came to my mind that the "friendly ship in the line of fire" might actually be the launching ship ... depending on how the launch angle and path is calculated for 1-/2-tube launchers?!
That launch actually, looks fairly normal for a tube mounted front of the superstructure? Assuming northing obscure the tube from the front I don't see how it cannot make the launch pictured (Judging by the distance the torpedo travelled, its clear they are launched earlier as well, so the DD can easily be at a more reasonable angle) I don't play Captain mode and I don't notice issue that comes from my ships not launching , which is something a bugged "Friendly ship in line of fire" behavior suggested by the OP would cause. The current friendly fire issue that happens is another issue entirely. I've seen some eye-brow raising friendly fire with torpedo on the forum, but never encountered any felt broken for me, so Its hard to say if it points to significant underlying bug or just freak-occurences.
|
|
|
Post by tortugapower on Jul 9, 2019 11:36:32 GMT -6
Yeah, you're really nice folks ... "I want a button to override that bug, screw those people who don't play captain mode!"
I have the suspicion that you won't be happy if you get your button - or do you like to blow up your own ships?
I interpreted some comments here as "I'm not playing Captain's mode and prefer that the current algorithm isn't changed." So I think it's more about the non-Captain's mode people not wanting the existing solution to change. I don't think that's a good solution myself, as I'm pretty sure the bugs I'm seeing are influencing the Admiral modes of difficulty, but if Fredrik sees a divided opinion, he'll gladly choose not to do anything. In such a situation, the best choice is to give Captain's mode folks -- I guess the main people who see this -- an override. Of course we will be happy! Even if you launch a torpedo and hit your own ship, well -- at least you could launch it!
|
|
|
Post by mycophobia on Jul 9, 2019 12:43:03 GMT -6
Yeah, you're really nice folks ... "I want a button to override that bug, screw those people who don't play captain mode!"
I have the suspicion that you won't be happy if you get your button - or do you like to blow up your own ships?
I interpreted some comments here as "I'm not playing Captain's mode and prefer that the current algorithm isn't changed." So I think it's more about the non-Captain's mode people not wanting the existing solution to change. I don't think that's a good solution myself, as I'm pretty sure the bugs I'm seeing are influencing the Admiral modes of difficulty, but if Fredrik sees a divided opinion, he'll gladly choose not to do anything. In such a situation, the best choice is to give Captain's mode folks -- I guess the main people who see this -- an override. Of course we will be happy! Even if you launch a torpedo and hit your own ship, well -- at least you could launch it! I suppose to clarify my stance a little here, I am saying that my observation(which I acknowledge is not necessarily indicative) does not suggest that there are issue with AI launches. However, the team knows the code best and I would definitely recommend them looking into the matter. If there is no connection between the weird friendly recognition and non-player ship behavior, an override button makes everyone happy without having to go through the potentially complicated work to delve into the codes. Even if there is no bug at all with anything, I support that the Captain mode player be given the button anyway, with all the friendly fire consequence that mail entail. Even if the game, arguably, is not balanced around the level of control captain mode allows, I do think that overriding friendly fire warning will enhance the experience who prefer that mode. (I doubt that will make torpedo more powerful than they already is in the hand of a player, will reduce player frustration and if anything may make for some hilarious misfires that AI already does anyway in the other modes.)
|
|
|
Post by sittingduck on Jul 9, 2019 13:23:13 GMT -6
I interpreted some comments here as "I'm not playing Captain's mode and prefer that the current algorithm isn't changed." So I think it's more about the non-Captain's mode people not wanting the existing solution to change. I don't think that's a good solution myself, as I'm pretty sure the bugs I'm seeing are influencing the Admiral modes of difficulty, but if Fredrik sees a divided opinion, he'll gladly choose not to do anything. In such a situation, the best choice is to give Captain's mode folks -- I guess the main people who see this -- an override. Of course we will be happy! Even if you launch a torpedo and hit your own ship, well -- at least you could launch it! I suppose to clarify my stance a little here, I am saying that my observation(which I acknowledge is not necessarily indicative) does not suggest that there are issue with AI launches. However, the team knows the code best and I would definitely recommend them looking into the matter. If there is no connection between the weird friendly recognition and non-player ship behavior, an override button makes everyone happy without having to go through the potentially complicated work to delve into the codes. Even if there is no bug at all with anything, I support that the Captain mode player be given the button anyway, with all the friendly fire consequence that mail entail. Even if the game, arguably, is not balanced around the level of control captain mode allows, I do think that overriding friendly fire warning will enhance the experience who prefer that mode. (I doubt that will make torpedo more powerful than they already is in the hand of a player, will reduce player frustration and if anything may make for some hilarious misfires that AI already does anyway in the other modes.) And that last sentence, in a nutshell, defines the whole issue. "...that the AI does anyway..." In Captains Mode it is the Player and not the AI that is prohibited by the Friendly Ship in Line of Fire occurance. This is aggravated by not having a Friendly Ship in any defined/obvious blocking position.
|
|
|
Post by dyermaker on Jul 9, 2019 14:04:38 GMT -6
Personally I am all for giving Captain's mode players all the micro management control they want. If they want to play that way, more power to them. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. I do have to wonder how much replay endurance those players will have when they win literally 99.5% of their battles due to min/maxing the AI fleets into oblivion. I would be bored to tears very quickly, & even playing Admiral's mode I easily win 80%+ of my battles. I have to laugh at the players that also complain about mine or sub losses in the monthly event or end battle phases, as I would bet dollars to donuts that those same players have large sub fleets or mines on every ship that can mount them....
|
|
|
Post by alsadius on Jul 9, 2019 14:37:28 GMT -6
Personally, though I play on Captain, I don't want such a button. Either fix the problem or don't, but the status quo is tolerable, and a fix that only helps human players is a move in the wrong direction. I want the AI to be better here, not for its holes to be hidden.
|
|
|
Post by tortugapower on Jul 9, 2019 18:52:01 GMT -6
Personally I am all for giving Captain's mode players all the micro management control they want. If they want to play that way, more power to them. It doesn't affect me in the slightest. I do have to wonder how much replay endurance those players will have when they win literally 99.5% of their battles due to min/maxing the AI fleets into oblivion. I would be bored to tears very quickly, & even playing Admiral's mode I easily win 80%+ of my battles. I have to laugh at the players that also complain about mine or sub losses in the monthly event or end battle phases, as I would bet dollars to donuts that those same players have large sub fleets or mines on every ship that can mount them.... I don't see how your comments about Captain's mode -- like how it would bore you to tears and other remarks with an air of elitism -- are driving this discussion forward. People have a variety of reasons for choosing the difficulty they do, and while I could defend my own reasons, let's instead treat/analyze the different player modes as separate styles of play and check our judgments at the door.
In this case, Captain's mode may be providing insight into a bug which is affecting the AI (and thus all player modes).
Personally, though I play on Captain, I don't want such a button. Either fix the problem or don't, but the status quo is tolerable, and a fix that only helps human players is a move in the wrong direction. I want the AI to be better here, not for its holes to be hidden. I think that's a fair point. You're saying you don't want a patch-fix for Captain's mode when it doesn't solve the underlying issue. I completely agree. I want the AI to be better, too.
I'd only push for the override button if it was clear Fredrik was not going to look into this launch issue.
I wonder if there is any development team awareness of this issue, or maybe someone who can provide insight. williammiller do you have any info on this?
|
|
|
Post by williammiller on Jul 9, 2019 19:29:03 GMT -6
The AI (and also the related player restriction) was adjusted several times during RTW1's development life, both directions: sometimes less restrictive to allow for more frequent torp shots when players reported it was too restrictive, and sometimes a bit more restrictive (or looking ahead farther) to avoid 'friendly fire' incidents when players reported it was too high a rate. It's a balancing act obviously, and not everyone will agree as to where the 'sweet spot' is for that setting.
As for a 'launch no matter what' button, I can see points both for and against that option. Will talk about it with the Beta Team & Fredrik and see what sort of thoughts they have on the matter.
Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by tortugapower on Jul 10, 2019 2:11:37 GMT -6
The AI (and also the related player restriction) was adjusted several times during RTW1's development life, both directions: sometimes less restrictive to allow for more frequent torp shots when players reported it was too restrictive, and sometimes a bit more restrictive (or looking ahead farther) to avoid 'friendly fire' incidents when players reported it was too high a rate. It's a balancing act obviously, and not everyone will agree as to where the 'sweet spot' is for that setting. As for a 'launch no matter what' button, I can see points both for and against that option. Will talk about it with the Beta Team & Fredrik and see what sort of thoughts they have on the matter. Thanks. It's more than that: I think there may be a bug in the script, unless there's something I just don't understand. If you look at the original post of this topic, my DD is getting reports of friendly ships even though there are none in the arc. I've seen this a few times.
I'm playing in Captain's mode so I can see this. But if it is a bug, I'd be worried it's affecting the other difficulties (without any clear indication) -- including the AI.
Cheers.
|
|