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Post by klavohunter on May 29, 2019 18:23:33 GMT -6
I would like to summarize my opinion on the arguments from the last 2 pages of this thread. Even the green line may be very much different than the black one, but mixing together the red lines and the blue line is a total nonsense. Rule The Waves 3: Time Heist
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 18:28:54 GMT -6
I would like to summarize my opinion on the arguments from the last 2 pages of this thread. Even the green line may be very much different than the black one, but mixing together the red lines and the blue line is a total nonsense. Rule The Waves 3: Time Heist Thats easy to make. Just make a 1900 save template with fleets edited to consist of real ships...
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Post by archelaos on May 30, 2019 1:44:54 GMT -6
Well, in case of some logic defying situation, like one of 2 enemy early coastal subs sinking your first BC two turns after entering active service (happened to me once in RTW1) while there are tons of light ships both in active service and on CP, and it removes your fun from playing (I bet there are people here who will see it as perfectly OK) you can always reload your last turn (if you saved before clicking end turn). That said some of my most memorable battles in RTW1 were those where matchmaker provided me with unbalanced force. I remember one where as AH my 2 first gen BCs and 6 or so Austrian style B (slow CAs by other navy standards ) were pitted against no less than 15 French Bs off the coast of Tunisia. Throughout engagement I was forced to keep my flag division of hopeless rust buckets outside visibility range of French battlefleet while my BCs pounded at them at close to max range. Results were not impressive (heavy damage to two French Bs if I recall correctly) but I still I won, as my BCs were barely scratched (they had 12/0 vs enemy 12/-1 and 13/-2, so I had both range and accuracy at range advantage) Or the other, as PLKC, where my BC with 3 CLs and 4 DDs appeared in a raid close to Bordeaux. In the evening. During the night, while searching for transports I stumbled into BCs with support and managed to sink one. But then the dawn came, and I was suddenly faced by 3 BC squadron with cruisers, and had to perform fighting withdrawal with a squadron that was already damaged and had less than 50% ammo available. So I pushed north, every now and then turning to fight them back. One by one my ships were damaged and crippled, but enemy was getting damaged too. And as their damage accumulated and ammo ran low, they peeled off and returned to ports. But at this point I was out of torps, and had just a few main shells. of my force, BC and two cruisers remained, and one CL was crippled and capable of 12-15 kts. Enemy BCs peeled off, but just as I thought I'm ok, fresh CA or two came from Brest... Very tense moment. They could easily sink my CLs and maybe even BC too as I had less than 20 main battery shells on BC (not 20/turret, mind you, 15-20 overall!) and empty magazines on CLs but thankfully a charge of my BC made them turn away just in time so I could break LOS and end the scenario. AI seem to get some more lenient rules on damage control, true, but I'm OK at that, as it will always be dumber so it needs slight edge. Though I seen AI DDs survive inordinate amount of hits... I also seen them sunk by single hit... The only thing I'm not OK is that my ships are way to reluctant to launch torps. Including situation when a 5 DD squadron in 1919 or so sent against enemy CA managed to loose 2 ships sunk and 3 heavy damaged while launching grand total of 3 torps out of 20 or so and miss with all of them (while at some point being within 600y from CA!) So I'm now playing on captain mode, so I can take control and force them to launch at proper moment.
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Post by jorgencab on May 30, 2019 3:46:47 GMT -6
Lot's of discusion in this thread and I don't think it is neccesary to scorn the OP for thinking the game is against him... sometimes it is... I have had plenty of WTF moments where the enemy have way more forces in a battle than I do despite me having the stronger and more numerous fleets in the area, but this is both realistic AND fun. This means you always need to be careful with what you do despite everything else. In this battle last night I had two pre-dreadnought and three armoured cruisers and three light ones against the opponents one pre-dreadnought, two armoured cruisers and three light cruisers... both had lots of DD around to. We ended up in a very long duel with mid to long naval gunfire for hours on end. In which the enemy dreadnought started to take some damage. A lucky hit on one of my cruisers put it out of actions and had to withdraw from the the fight. Just as night came I made a lucky hot on there now battered dreadnought and it got its rudder jammed on place so I started to circle him and pounding him to dust. Hitting him with several torpedoes from the destroyers and cruisers... they got of ONE torpedo after all of this and sank one of my dreadnoughts but theirs sank too. But A well, that happens and started to sail away with my fleet in the darkness as my other dreadnought struck a mine and sank too... This is just REALISTIC and not the game screwing you over... this i FUN! This set me back in the war considerably and I struggled to get any decisive battles to fix the score after this... but this is why I like this game!!! In the real world a penetration can likely be a dud and do very little damage while a HE round going off can jam a turret for several hours if you are unlucky. This is how the game just is very realistic. We should not treat it as just ships with an HP bar where everything is fine and dandy until the last HP in removed. This game is more of a simulation game than everything else which I thin is its string point and not weak point.
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Post by namuras on May 30, 2019 8:50:36 GMT -6
I've played a lot of games that use a fairly straightforward damage model where each ship operates at full effectiveness until its "hitpoints" are depleted, at which point it blows up. That certainly reduces the effect of chance, but it's not very interesting. Thats not the point. I was perfectly fine with RTW 1. You just used the correct strategy and won. Simple as that. But now its just a huge load of RNG where one CA with 8x6in guns and 3in armour and sluggish speed car literally wreck two cruisers with 4x9in guns and 5.5in of armour and +4kts top speed in comparsion. And the game should apply the same RNG to AI as it does to the player. My ships engine got damaged without combat like in every 1 of 3 battles, enemy ship never had such troubles like EVER. My ship gets hit into the fore part -> top speed lowered by 5kts. Enemy ship is hit like 25 times with 12in guns, but can maintain its top speed anyway. Yeah, thats not very immersive. Also I would really like to form my own squadrons before the battle, because the game is clearly more OK to giving the upper hand to the weaker AI navy than to players better navy, let alone if the player has weaker navy... I mean, whats the point of building more ships that 2 of each type. 2B, 2CA, 2CL and a few DDs for trade protection. Nothing more is needed because nothing more appears in the battle anyway... Keep in mind that you are not meant to win every engagement. Also not all engagements are happening with equal forces.
Even if you have local superiority, not all your ships are going to be underway in one fleet looking for that one raider in the area. On the other hand fleet battles happen every now and then, but usually after the 2nd or 3rd one side is running out of capital ships.
One way of circumventing your specific problem is to scrap all CL / CA and only have BCs and BBs of 29knots or faster speed.
Edit: Something came to mind: It helps playing as one of the european Nations if you want big B / BB battles. Very Large Fleet size and go for Germany. You will find yourself a Jutland or 5 until 1930 atleast. The UK is always available to blockade you, France and Russia are seemingly willing to match your Fleet aswell. Those battles are usually somewhat even... the UK can usually muster more capital ships, but their hidden flaw and the AIs designs / tactics usually help a player rapidly getting an even playing field. With larger battles and smaller numbers it usually pays dividends to have 150 shells per gun on you BB tho.
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Post by alsadius on May 30, 2019 11:07:37 GMT -6
The only thing I'm not OK is that my ships are way to reluctant to launch torps. Including situation when a 5 DD squadron in 1919 or so sent against enemy CA managed to loose 2 ships sunk and 3 heavy damaged while launching grand total of 3 torps out of 20 or so and miss with all of them (while at some point being within 600y from CA!) So I'm now playing on captain mode, so I can take control and force them to launch at proper moment. Seconding this. After the battle I'm currently in (where I could probably have launched 30-40 more torps than I have so far, in a battle headlined by 3x CA on each side), I'm switching to Captain mode so that I can order launches. I've also made a thread over in Recommendations.
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Post by mycophobia on May 30, 2019 11:35:12 GMT -6
The only thing I'm not OK is that my ships are way to reluctant to launch torps. Including situation when a 5 DD squadron in 1919 or so sent against enemy CA managed to loose 2 ships sunk and 3 heavy damaged while launching grand total of 3 torps out of 20 or so and miss with all of them (while at some point being within 600y from CA!) So I'm now playing on captain mode, so I can take control and force them to launch at proper moment. Seconding this. After the battle I'm currently in (where I could probably have launched 30-40 more torps than I have so far, in a battle headlined by 3x CA on each side), I'm switching to Captain mode so that I can order launches. I've also made a thread over in Recommendations. I think it comes down to how much control you want, I prefer rear admiral so I can direct my fleet for more intricate maneuver and decisions due to the quite limited amount of orders I can give to my fleets in admiral. But I personally don't mind leaving the torpedo, targeting decision etc to my captains, if they make poor decisions I think its fair as they do happen irl. The balance for me is that I should be issue fairly specific/complex order, but I shouldn't expect them carried out to the letter. Also regarding torpedos, irl torpedoing, even in close ranges are not always successful. There is a lot of pressure in aiming and firing them while engaging enemy at close range and heavy fire (Playing silent hunter with high realism settings really demonstrate how that it is not easy at all to achieve hits with torpedos. I'd imagine surface ships having a even more difficult time). If anything I think this makes times where your brave destroyer captain pulling off strikes all the more rewarding (I had a DD captain charging straight into enemy battleline when rest of the squadron turned back and starting torpedoing left a right, sinking 2 BBs before being torn to shreads by the rest of the line, it was truly awe inspiring to watch). Again I understand that's not for everyone, which is why fortunately we have Captains mode. Having good training, torpedo tech, lots of tubes and good positioning all help a lot in getting torpedo launched and getting hits, so consider making that investment.
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Post by christian on May 30, 2019 12:25:18 GMT -6
the main problem i have is carriers need to be dragged into the battle to participate while in real life their range made it so while they could be stationed in port or sailing on the ocean some 250 nautical miles from enemy ships they could still participate like in real life a carrier did not need to particiape to be in the fight
this is the major thing lacking in rtw 2 because carrier fights are very very rare and its annoying my carriers are basically useless
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Post by christian on May 30, 2019 12:27:00 GMT -6
Seconding this. After the battle I'm currently in (where I could probably have launched 30-40 more torps than I have so far, in a battle headlined by 3x CA on each side), I'm switching to Captain mode so that I can order launches. I've also made a thread over in Recommendations. I think it comes down to how much control you want, I prefer rear admiral so I can direct my fleet for more intricate maneuver and decisions due to the quite limited amount of orders I can give to my fleets in admiral. But I personally don't mind leaving the torpedo, targeting decision etc to my captains, if they make poor decisions I think its fair as they do happen irl. The balance for me is that I should be issue fairly specific/complex order, but I shouldn't expect them carried out to the letter. Also regarding torpedos, irl torpedoing, even in close ranges are not always successful. There is a lot of pressure in aiming and firing them while engaging enemy at close range and heavy fire (Playing silent hunter with high realism settings really demonstrate how that it is not easy at all to achieve hits with torpedos. I'd imagine surface ships having a even more difficult time). If anything I think this makes times where your brave destroyer captain pulling off strikes all the more rewarding (I had a DD captain charging straight into enemy battleline when rest of the squadron turned back and starting torpedoing left a right, sinking 2 BBs before being torn to shreads by the rest of the line, it was truly awe inspiring to watch). Again I understand that's not for everyone, which is why fortunately we have Captains mode. Having good training, torpedo tech, lots of tubes and good positioning all help a lot in getting torpedo launched and getting hits, so consider making that investment. surface ships usually actually have quite an easier time aiming torpedoes the swivel makes it nice and easy to aim and the onboard surface torpedo aimer is usually quite accurate if the enemy ships suffer from a bad case of straighlinius they will get hit
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Post by alsadius on May 30, 2019 12:28:43 GMT -6
I don't mind torps missing, to be clear. But the fact that they don't get fired at all, even when the ships are on top of each other, is immensely frustrating. I'd rather give a "Fire your torps!" order and let the AI handle details, but because I can't do that, I want to take over and do it myself. There's bad decisions, and there's "you'd need to be deaf, dumb, and blind" decisions, and I can't handle the latter.
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Post by mycophobia on May 30, 2019 12:39:02 GMT -6
I think it comes down to how much control you want, I prefer rear admiral so I can direct my fleet for more intricate maneuver and decisions due to the quite limited amount of orders I can give to my fleets in admiral. But I personally don't mind leaving the torpedo, targeting decision etc to my captains, if they make poor decisions I think its fair as they do happen irl. The balance for me is that I should be issue fairly specific/complex order, but I shouldn't expect them carried out to the letter. Also regarding torpedos, irl torpedoing, even in close ranges are not always successful. There is a lot of pressure in aiming and firing them while engaging enemy at close range and heavy fire (Playing silent hunter with high realism settings really demonstrate how that it is not easy at all to achieve hits with torpedos. I'd imagine surface ships having a even more difficult time). If anything I think this makes times where your brave destroyer captain pulling off strikes all the more rewarding (I had a DD captain charging straight into enemy battleline when rest of the squadron turned back and starting torpedoing left a right, sinking 2 BBs before being torn to shreads by the rest of the line, it was truly awe inspiring to watch). Again I understand that's not for everyone, which is why fortunately we have Captains mode. Having good training, torpedo tech, lots of tubes and good positioning all help a lot in getting torpedo launched and getting hits, so consider making that investment. surface ships usually actually have quite an easier time aiming torpedoes the swivel makes it nice and easy to aim and the onboard surface torpedo aimer is usually quite accurate if the enemy ships suffer from a bad case of straighlinius they will get hit Having a swivel makes it easier compared to setting torpedo gyro for sure, but you still need accurate bearing, range and speed data to get an effective firing solution. It makes total sense for DD captains to refrain or taking a long time to decide to make those mid-long range launches. Further, I'd argue in close range(1-2000 yards) against a evading target, all the smoke, fire, rapidly changing course etc does not make things any easier. That said, when we get down to the in your face range, I do agree most guys should just decide to dump all the fish in the water in the general direction and expect some hits. Although its possible to expect the captain exercising some fire discipline and choose the hold torpedos against larger targets if the close enemy is a DD or something. But If they are in a BB's face then yes, they should absolutely at least attempt to launch, even if the amount of fire they are no doubt under may make them to make erratic shots. The AI is a little reserved in this scenario, but I think its mostly when tube counts a low. In the mid-late 20s my DD captain have no problem with give anything that get near them a mouthful, to the point I almost wish they don't waste too many shots on DDs. On the otherhand I do agree that early 2-4 tube dds are way too conservative(Somehow my Bs likes to launch torps more than my DDs)
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Post by alsadius on May 30, 2019 13:05:56 GMT -6
The battle I'm in now has my torpedo boats (1899 design, 500ton DD, 9x torp tube, 1x4" gun, 26 kts) scraping hulls with enemy CAs, the heaviest unit in their fleet, and not firing - a division of five of those boats fired one solitary torp in a full pass. I've lost a couple of them in the run in, which is to be expected, but then they just don't do anything.
I suspect, judging by past battles, that the target ship might be in a sinking state, and they don't want to waste the ammo. Fair enough, but if the ship is sinking so much that they don't waste the ammo(including, in one case, when their own ship was sinking!), then it should be showing up as "Sinking" status. Or there should be a "The captain of DD Boaty McBoatface declines to fire at a doomed enemy" notice in the log, if it's possible for the captain to be wrong.
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Post by mycophobia on May 30, 2019 13:27:48 GMT -6
The battle I'm in now has my torpedo boats (1899 design, 500ton DD, 9x torp tube, 1x4" gun, 26 kts) scraping hulls with enemy CAs, the heaviest unit in their fleet, and not firing - a division of five of those boats fired one solitary torp in a full pass. I've lost a couple of them in the run in, which is to be expected, but then they just don't do anything. I suspect, judging by past battles, that the target ship might be in a sinking state, and they don't want to waste the ammo. Fair enough, but if the ship is sinking so much that they don't waste the ammo(including, in one case, when their own ship was sinking!), then it should be showing up as "Sinking" status. Or there should be a "The captain of DD Boaty McBoatface declines to fire at a doomed enemy" notice in the log, if it's possible for the captain to be wrong. How are you able to fit soo many tubes on a 500 toner O.O, also wouldn't the rof penalty stack to insane level. I feel that might a case where the game simply doesn't know how to handle a 9 single tube DD and not giving it's amount of tubes fair credit.
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Post by alsadius on May 30, 2019 14:21:31 GMT -6
The battle I'm in now has my torpedo boats (1899 design, 500ton DD, 9x torp tube, 1x4" gun, 26 kts) scraping hulls with enemy CAs, the heaviest unit in their fleet, and not firing - a division of five of those boats fired one solitary torp in a full pass. I've lost a couple of them in the run in, which is to be expected, but then they just don't do anything. I suspect, judging by past battles, that the target ship might be in a sinking state, and they don't want to waste the ammo. Fair enough, but if the ship is sinking so much that they don't waste the ammo(including, in one case, when their own ship was sinking!), then it should be showing up as "Sinking" status. Or there should be a "The captain of DD Boaty McBoatface declines to fire at a doomed enemy" notice in the log, if it's possible for the captain to be wrong. How are you able to fit soo many tubes on a 500 toner O.O, also wouldn't the rof penalty stack to insane level. I feel that might a case where the game simply doesn't know how to handle a 9 single tube DD and not giving it's amount of tubes fair credit. One centreline swivel and four on each side, plus one gun. That design is short range, cramped, speed-built engines, and has a single 4" gun with like 100 rounds, and of course no armour. In roleplay terms, it's intended to be an 1890-style torpedo boat, or as close to it as I can get in RTW. Nine TT is only like a quarter of the ship's mass, so you can spend the other 3/4 on engines, and most of the stuff isn't centreline, so the ROF penalty is fairly low. (FWIW, I'm at work, so it's possible that design is my 23 knot build instead. But I think my 23kt is my medium range minesweeper with 2x4" and 4x TT. ) Edit: Nope, had my designs right the first time around. The torpedo boat even carries 150 rounds for the 4".
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Post by elenian on May 30, 2019 15:09:54 GMT -6
I actually have the opposite issue - DD flotillas putting a half dozen fish into a single crippled CL, etc - once the 20s roll around!
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