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Post by rodentnavy on Jun 16, 2019 3:33:28 GMT -6
-Enemy minefields seemingly able to take out a ship or two if you get near their ports/guns, but enemies never, and I mean never. AS IN, NEVER ONCE SEEN IN THE FOUR YEARS OF PLAYING RTW1 AND THIS YEAR PLAYING RTW2. Hit a mine. EVER. I think I once had a French destroyer run itself onto a US minefield (the French being the AI) but a lot more often I have noticed the suspicious jig in course by a cruiser or similar that was on a straight line vector for one of my little red circles. This was in RTW1.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 16, 2019 15:42:51 GMT -6
I just wanted to add my comments about war games. I’ve played public wargames since their introduction on the TRS-80. I’ve also participated in real wargames in NORAD. I have some experience.
Wargames whether public or military are simulations that have predetermined rules, data and procedures about a conflict. It is theoretical, not reality. The wargame models reality but is never intended to be more than a useful approximation of reality.
The wargames that pit human versus human introduce that unknown factor; the human mind and how it will react to a situation. RTW games do not introduce that factor. In fact, RTW AI is predictable if you think about it.
We can’t get upset about a game that does a good job of allowing us to be an admiral, built aircraft and ships, plan our strategy and execute it with tactics. It isn’t reality, it is a game to play and enjoy.
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Post by axe99 on Jun 16, 2019 16:51:08 GMT -6
Going to be honest I have noticed some things which rather tick me off in terms of balance, or at least from what I can tell is happening in the game. -The good old RTW1 bug/imbalance/etc of enemy ships actually firing torpedoes while mine never do, despite having tech advantages, better ships, more launchers, training, and everything else -Enemies seemingly appearing in higher numbers in battles despite my own forces greatly exceeding theirs, I fail to believe that out of an entire fleet, my naval experts sent 4 destroyers against light cruisers and battleships on a convoy raid, and when defending our coasts they spare 1 old battleship or 2 against their newest battlecruisers. -Enemies can just 'lol nope' out of a several year war and give you nothing for it, meaning either exit and re-load the last save, or enjoy that entire run basically being economically ruined. -Enemies seemingly never have engine issues, and can take 10 times more hits than you can before slowing down. I refuse to believe that a single hit downs my light cruisers by 3+ knots, while battleship shells are ignored by theirs. -Enemy minefields seemingly able to take out a ship or two if you get near their ports/guns, but enemies never, and I mean never. AS IN, NEVER ONCE SEEN IN THE FOUR YEARS OF PLAYING RTW1 AND THIS YEAR PLAYING RTW2. Hit a mine. EVER. The only saving grace in terms of player vs AI balance, is that they cannot use carriers at all, they suck so god damned badly. Once you got a task force of 4 modern carriers you win every battle, no exceptions. I'v only managed two partial games so far (I updated my game mid-save when I should have been more patient, and tanked a rather enjoyable game I was having), but: - I've seen no great variance in what I would expect between the enemy and my ships firing torpedoes - The size of each side in battles (and I've fought plenty of these) seems fine (sometimes I have the advantage, sometimes they do, sometimes it's even - and the numerical advantage in the zone seems to bias that appropriately, while still leaving plenty of room for variance, which I would consider historically plausible and much more enjoyable gameplay than historically implausible numerical determinism). - I haven't fought enough wars to have seen anything odd happen in peace deals, but none of the wars finished seemed 'off'. If you're getting lots of problems here one or the other of us is likely to be sitting right on the edge of the statistical distribution of possible results. - I've hit and slowed down enemy ships on numerous occasions, and I don't feel it happens more often to me than it does to them. I do agree it yields a strong emotional response when it does, though, and this has the potential to lead us to these events sticking more firmly in our mind, opening us to the error of assuming this means they happen more often - it's a standard thing with the human brain, and a very sensible evolved trait to pay more attention to when things go wrong than right, as it means we're more likely to survive in the wild, but it plays merry havoc with our capacity to objectively evalutate something we have emotional attachment to, like a fun videogame. - I've already had an enemy ship hit a mine in my games. Note that the odds of this happening are likely to be related to the amount of minelaying ships available to both sides (and possibly in that region as well). Don't get me wrong - it might be me that's getting the edge cases and not you, but it sounds like you're having a bit of bad luck amongst things, along with some possible confirmation bias going on as well (no offence intended - as per the comment above, it's something we all do and part of how our brains have evolved).
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Post by rimbecano on Jun 16, 2019 18:14:28 GMT -6
-Enemies seemingly appearing in higher numbers in battles despite my own forces greatly exceeding theirs, I fail to believe that out of an entire fleet, my naval experts sent 4 destroyers against light cruisers and battleships on a convoy raid, and when defending our coasts they spare 1 old battleship or 2 against their newest battlecruisers. But naval battles aren't generally a thing of "each of us will send forces to this location, and then we'll fight". As often as not, they're a matter of "Our ships on this mission meet enemy ships on that mission, and neither knew the other was there", or "We received intel that three enemy CLs would be patrolling this area, and sent three CAs to engage them. Oh crap, those are battlecruisers!" A few things here: sometimes a torpedo hit from a submarine will be reported as a mine (but will show in the ship log after the battle as a torpedo), because all you know during the battle is that there was an underwater explosion. You also don't necessarily see when an enemy ship hits a mine (it's not necessarily in view, and even if it is, I don't think there's a popup). Once in SAI, I led the enemy battleline through a small minefield, and one enemy battleship suddenly slowed down, but I don't think there was a message.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 16, 2019 18:30:48 GMT -6
-Enemies seemingly appearing in higher numbers in battles despite my own forces greatly exceeding theirs, I fail to believe that out of an entire fleet, my naval experts sent 4 destroyers against light cruisers and battleships on a convoy raid, and when defending our coasts they spare 1 old battleship or 2 against their newest battlecruisers. But naval battles aren't generally a thing of "each of us will send forces to this location, and then we'll fight". As often as not, they're a matter of "Our ships on this mission meet enemy ships on that mission, and neither knew the other was there", or "We received intel that three enemy CLs would be patrolling this area, and sent three CAs to engage them. Oh crap, those are battlecruisers!" A few things here: sometimes a torpedo hit from a submarine will be reported as a mine (but will show in the ship log after the battle as a torpedo), because all you know during the battle is that there was an underwater explosion. You also don't necessarily see when an enemy ship hits a mine (it's not necessarily in view, and even if it is, I don't think there's a popup). Once in SAI, I led the enemy battleline through a small minefield, and one enemy battleship suddenly slowed down, but I don't think there was a message. What you are describing, and rightly so, is a meeting engagement. Those types of engagements where both sides are sailing and suddenly discover each other, happened all the time.... even with radar. With radar, you get a pip, which is nothing more than a small streak of light. You can try to judge the size of the ship from the size of the pip but don't rely on that judgement. Even with men in the crow's nest for spotting, by the time you see the target, provided you aren't in rough seas, fog or stormy weather like the North Sea, you still have to verify the ship type and nationality, that is what happened at Jutland and other battles. The first and second Battles of Guadalcanal happened just that way and so did the Battle of Savo Island.... even with radar which Savo Island blanked the returns. In the days of aviation, you can send out a scout and try to get a more precise report on numbers, ship type, direction, speed and nationality.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 16, 2019 19:59:31 GMT -6
Just one more reminder. This is 2019 and the time period for RTW2 is from 1920 to 1950. That is almost 99 years to 69 years. Most of the men involved are dead and gone, many of the records are not available unless you go to the Naval archives of the nations and in some cases, its still not available. Example: Springstyles books of actual drawing of US Naval ships. Only book 1 and 3 are available. Book 2 is gone. Book 1 covers 1911 to 1925 while Book #3 covers 1939-1944. See the gap. There are no actual drawings available in the interwar period. This is the problem for historians everywhere. So how is a gamer going to build a game when the documentation is mostly secondary sources. Even the primary sources are not always reliable like deck logs if available.
Another issue to consider.
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Post by secondcomingofzeno on Jun 16, 2019 20:18:17 GMT -6
My forces in an area= 12 B's and a CA. Enemy forces in said area as the game tells me= 3 CL's and a DD.
Enters battle.
1 Japanese B vs 1 Enemy B, 3 CA's, a CL, and a DD.
Where did my 11 B's go? My CA?
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Post by ramjb on Jun 16, 2019 22:56:23 GMT -6
"Enemy forces in said area as the game tells me"
I was going to mention some spectacular intelligence f*ckups that happened during WWI and WWII, but then I thought "why bother". They happened, we all know about them, and they were the conduits that ended very badly for the part with poor intel.
Game tells you your side's intel estimation in an area. Yes, it can be poor intel. And yes, it's intentional. And no, that doesn't mean the game's badly designed.
As for where the 11 Bs and your CAs go probably looking for where your light scouting forces were. No DDs, no CLs, no eyes. Seems that by accident (I doubt the game's intel reports account for such things, even while IMO it should) you had a battle that makes complete sense - one of your battleships was caught alone by a superior force because he had no scouting ships in the area that could tell him what was around.
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 16, 2019 23:15:53 GMT -6
As said above, it is "part of the game" that lopsided or potentially unfair engagement can happen despite you having the superior force. As frustrating as that may be, things like that can happen real life, and that's how game chose to structure itself. That said, if that's ALL the battle you are getting, then that may not be design as intended and warrant a report to the bug section. However, I highly doubt that is indeed the case based on my own games. While these battles happen from time to time, I suspect there is either a degree of bad luck and confirmation bias that made them seem as bad as some people seems to be suggesting. The game is certainly not perfect, but I don't think the game is meant to make "fair" engagements at all times. You may find this to your taste, or you may hate it, but that is just how the game is structured to do. There are things like "degree of composition" that are still up for debate, and I suggest that those topics can be a good avenue to bring about some change. But RTW have never been one to ensure that every battle necessarily reflect numerical advantage, and it has been stated by the team again and again that there is no AI "cheating" in the codes. While I too wish for some player agency in how we can skew the RNG, I personally don't take issues with the system of RNG and I don't think that its likely to change either. Speaking of which, my first tip when I tried to introduce this game over to the Chinese community was "There is nothing wrong if you cant read what the game tells you about status of ship, composition of enemy, or whether something is sinking or not. Its all lies anyway"
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Post by secondcomingofzeno on Jun 16, 2019 23:49:11 GMT -6
I am convinced the AI flat out 'cheats' in terms of escaping wars.
I'm in a war with russia for a 'mere' few turns, I invade a colony of theirs, and they instantly get to escape the war with absolutely nothing to reward me with.
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Post by namuras on Jun 17, 2019 1:50:13 GMT -6
My forces in an area= 12 B's and a CA. Enemy forces in said area as the game tells me= 3 CL's and a DD. Enters battle. 1 Japanese B vs 1 Enemy B, 3 CA's, a CL, and a DD. Where did my 11 B's go? My CA? In cases like this I always check the OOB. You'd be surprised how many of your ships are actually in the area. They just happen to be under AI control.
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 17, 2019 1:57:53 GMT -6
I am convinced the AI flat out 'cheats' in terms of escaping wars. I'm in a war with russia for a 'mere' few turns, I invade a colony of theirs, and they instantly get to escape the war with absolutely nothing to reward me with. Until there is contrary claim or proof that the ai gets any special benefit in this regard, I’d take the dev for their words. Over 30 games of rtw 1/2 I’ve seen things that made me raise an eyebrow, but also know that these things are exception rather than the norm. The current pure rng system can maybe use to some improvement to avoid extremely unlikely scenarios , but right now what most people have with invasion is more likely bad luck than anything else.
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Post by secondcomingofzeno on Jun 17, 2019 2:02:40 GMT -6
So a cruiser battle, 2 of my CL's and a handful of DD's vs 3 CL's, some DD's, and a god damned CA.
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Post by williammiller on Jun 17, 2019 13:05:13 GMT -6
I am convinced the AI flat out 'cheats' in terms of escaping wars. I'm in a war with russia for a 'mere' few turns, I invade a colony of theirs, and they instantly get to escape the war with absolutely nothing to reward me with. We have said this before, and I will say it again: the AI does not cheat, it never has and never will. I have personally examined the code sections that Fredrik wrote that applies to this aspect (for other issues, not to look for 'cheating') and I can say that any claims that the AI cheats must derive from either observational bias or an unintended bug. Fredrik himself has confirmed this several times. As a developer/publisher I would never stand for a game where the AI 'cheats', I strongly dislike that idea with a passion and would not allow such a thing.
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Post by hoffmads on Jun 17, 2019 13:54:57 GMT -6
With regards to unsatisfying peace results, these things happened historically. Most wars were not WW I & II, and we're not fought until unconditional surrender. Additionally, there's a lot going on in a war besides naval action. Earlier in my current game as Japan, I was allied to the Germans and we had Russia in a vice. I had invaded Sakhalin and the Russian Navy was either at the bottom or blockaded in port by the Germans, but the war ended with a white peace. While that was frustrating, I had to think about the other factors involved: maybe there Germans were faltering in the land war, perhaps the spending was overtaxing the German and Japanese economies, there could have been pressure exerted by other great powers, etc. I personally think the game does a good job of abstracting this, though it might help if peace events were a bit more detailed as to why. Just my two cents.
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