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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 24, 2015 18:15:32 GMT -6
I could not use your SSR because of version differences, my version is the 3B3 beta. I therefore duplicated using a text version of the report. I made some changes. She is 4 feet wider in the beam and in the draught. She now weighs in at 1376 tons. I had to lower her speed to 22 knots to get a well balanced design, no other way possible. She has the same armament as your design but is a better seaboat and a better gun platform. You must remember that warships in the modern age don't fight in calm bay's. They fight in open oceans, seas like North Sea, Baltic, Mediterranean, Pacific and Atlantic etc. If they roll, pitch and yaw so badly that the weapons can not be accurately aimed, they will waste ammunition, make the crew sick and possibly damage the ship. A balanced design, as I have stated is vital. Focus on that area.
Lont op Kruitvat.ssr (4.07 KB)
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 24, 2015 18:17:39 GMT -6
Having trouble with editing and entering SSR's.
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Post by gornik on Jun 25, 2015 13:18:57 GMT -6
I could not use your SSR because of version differences, my version is the 3B3 beta. I therefore duplicated using a text version of the report. I made some changes. She is 4 feet wider in the beam and in the draught. She now weighs in at 1376 tons. I had to lower her speed to 22 knots to get a well balanced design, no other way possible. She has the same armament as your design but is a better seaboat and a better gun platform. You must remember that warships in the modern age don't fight in calm bay's. They fight in open oceans, seas like North Sea, Baltic, Mediterranean, Pacific and Atlantic etc. If they roll, pitch and yaw so badly that the weapons can not be accurately aimed, they will waste ammunition, make the crew sick and possibly damage the ship. A balanced design, as I have stated is vital. Focus on that area.
The ship you designed is clear despatch vessel or avizo, more cruiser then DD. My thought was about ship which looks like typical cheap (and unbalanced) destroyer of that time and nearly as fast as most of them in same sea conditions, but may sink any ship of this class without problems. Her "very limited seakeeping ability" is intended, enemy DDs will suffer same problems and wouldn't operate in heavy weather. And for heavy sea I want to design small scout cruiser, such as Russian Novik. Maybe I'll try to create also 1000-ton torpedo cruiser, but I need to read more about this class first. They should suffer more problems than destroyers as finally lose concurrence with them. With time DD designs should become more balanced, of course, so here is DD leader for pre-WWI time: Vliegende Faam.ssr (4.55 KB) (Flying Fame) She is much better in seakeeping and again overgunned in comparison with same class ships
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 25, 2015 19:09:10 GMT -6
I could not use your SSR because of version differences, my version is the 3B3 beta. I therefore duplicated using a text version of the report. I made some changes. She is 4 feet wider in the beam and in the draught. She now weighs in at 1376 tons. I had to lower her speed to 22 knots to get a well balanced design, no other way possible. She has the same armament as your design but is a better seaboat and a better gun platform. You must remember that warships in the modern age don't fight in calm bay's. They fight in open oceans, seas like North Sea, Baltic, Mediterranean, Pacific and Atlantic etc. If they roll, pitch and yaw so badly that the weapons can not be accurately aimed, they will waste ammunition, make the crew sick and possibly damage the ship. A balanced design, as I have stated is vital. Focus on that area.
The ship you designed is clear despatch vessel or avizo, more cruiser then DD. My thought was about ship which looks like typical cheap (and unbalanced) destroyer of that time and nearly as fast as most of them in same sea conditions, but may sink any ship of this class without problems. Her "very limited seakeeping ability" is intended, enemy DDs will suffer same problems and wouldn't operate in heavy weather. And for heavy sea I want to design small scout cruiser, such as Russian Novik. Maybe I'll try to create also 1000-ton torpedo cruiser, but I need to read more about this class first. They should suffer more problems than destroyers as finally lose concurrence with them. With time DD designs should become more balanced, of course, so here is DD leader for pre-WWI time: (Flying Fame) She is much better in seakeeping and again overgunned in comparison with same class ships My redesign has the same tonnage as the HMS Valhalla, so she should do very nicely in your scheme. You can't go cheap on an ocean going vessel unless this is a coastal patrol boat.
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Post by gornik on Jun 28, 2015 11:26:52 GMT -6
My redesign has the same tonnage as the HMS Valhalla, so she should do very nicely in your scheme. You can't go cheap on an ocean going vessel unless this is a coastal patrol boat. That should be slightly larger destroyer of 1900 year-with all disadvantages of this class: weak hull, unreliable machines, short range... Just better armed than opponents. As this construction is well-knows for shipbuilders and does not needs Fisher-class people to be implemented And now I designed something you should like more: Arcanne.sship (1.04 KB) Arcanne.ssr (4.22 KB) Torpedo gunboat Arcane has great seakeeping, good speed and reasonable armament. However, her tests show only equality with Japanese Chihaya and Yaeyama (Best armed ships of that class), and her speed is still not enough to catch destroyers (except poor-built, like Russian Sokols) Maybe with radio and machinery improvements she may become cheapest forward scout for fleet in open sea actions... Test battle with Chihayas: Test Arcane.rar (3.2 KB)
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Post by gornik on Jun 28, 2015 13:04:16 GMT -6
Returning back to battleships, I designed 1895-year ram battleship for starting fleet: Arke des Verbonds.sship (1.09 KB) Arke des Verbonds.ssr (6.58 KB) She has good forward artillery and torpedo fire, and enough speed to run close enough to enemy battleline. Of course, Arke is not ideal-this was intended, as she is the ship of of "trial and error" time. However, in test 2x2 battles with slightly younger and larger Majestics Arkes usually win because of their torpedoes and - sometimes - rams
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 29, 2015 9:17:25 GMT -6
Gornik:
Interesting designs but not practical in a realistic combat situation which is my priority. I am a student of history and an amateur historian. I have read and assisted an author of naval history with his books by reading the drafts and doing a critical analysis. That's how I view the design of ships. Your designs are interesting but I can't honestly say I believe they would have ever been built, possibly they were considered but not actually developed. I am enjoying this though, its interesting. Keep the designs coming.
UPDATE: Here is my modification for your Arke Des Verbonds - Arke des Verbonds.ssr (6.48 KB) - She is longer at 200 feet giving a LtoB of 9.09 with a speed of 21 knots. Freeboard is as per the formula for the time period. No other armor or gun changes were made. Bow and stern are the same.
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Post by gornik on Jun 29, 2015 14:57:28 GMT -6
Gornik:
Interesting designs but not practical in a realistic combat situation which is my priority. I am a student of history and an amateur historian. I have read and assisted an author of naval history with his books by reading the drafts and doing a critical analysis. That's how I view the design of ships. Your designs are interesting but I can't honestly say I believe they would have ever been built, possibly they were considered but not actually developed. I am enjoying this though, its interesting. Keep the designs coming.
UPDATE: Here is my modification for your Arke Des Verbonds - - She is longer at 200 feet giving a LtoB of 9.09 with a speed of 21 knots. Freeboard is as per the formula for the time period. No other armor or gun changes were made. Bow and stern are the same. In naval history I'm novice, too, I only read few books about building some ships (mostly Russian RJW-era). In most designs I try to test unusual imaginary and real concepts which weren't developed IRL but possible in game. So they are optimised mostly for in-game situations, not for our world. In fact, it looks like real usage of war experience, only virtual About Arke-8000 additional tons for 1 extra knot in not fair trade, I think. And freeboard 12 meters high? She is good practice target for amateur gunners now... Ram tactics theory of that time allowed low freeboard to make ship less vulnerable in close combat and to allow her monster guns to fire forward. Seem that admirals of that time didn't think much about fighting in heavy seas. Today after reading updated manual I tried to create cheap colonial cruiser suitable for both merchant hunting (if was in far seas at the beginning of war) and ASW patroling (if was at home base) Oude Eiken.sship (1.05 KB) (Old Oak) Oude Eiken.ssr (4.33 KB) She shouldn't fight fair battles-only sink merchants/subs and run from old cruisers. If she meet something newer and faster the only options are scuttling or hopeless battle. Intention is to build them in large series and force enemy to use his best cruisers for colonial patrols. And there also may be 2-3 Drie Roemers nearby...
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Post by gornik on Jun 30, 2015 17:14:43 GMT -6
Another try to visualise my designs - now Oude Eiken: Hope she looks more realistic than previous
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Post by brucesim2003 on Jun 30, 2015 19:18:33 GMT -6
Hope she looks more realistic than previous Hate to say it, but no she doesn't. No way would a colonial cruiser (essentially a glorified gunboat) have a clipper bow. Once again it would be either a plough bow or more likely a vertical bow. Also, most warships of the day (especially the smaller ones) had a very minimalistic superstructure. This is an example of what could be called a colonial cruiser, albeit somewhat smaller than yours. You need to realise that ships of the day didn't look fast (or "mean"), and a lot of things you see in a modern (or even WW2) ship, like clipper bows, superstructure up the wazzoo etc, simply didn't exist back then.
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Post by gornik on Jul 1, 2015 12:00:54 GMT -6
No way would a colonial cruiser (essentially a glorified gunboat) have a clipper bow. Once again it would be either a plough bow or more likely a vertical bow. ...a lot of things you see in a modern (or even WW2) ship, like clipper bows, superstructure up the wazzoo etc, simply didn't exist back then. Really? Here are some of the ships I had in mind while designing Eiken-class: HMS Cadmus, sloop, 1903 IJN Tone, light cruiser, 1907 SMS Nautilus, "mine cruiser", 1906 Also note USA gunboat Dubuc, Japanese Yodo etc. Of course, they were not mainstream, but such configuration was possible. And don't forget Russian Dobroflot auxiliaries! Moreover, Eiken should be as universal as possible. Her duties may be: colonial gunboat; governor's yacht; stationer; raider; convoy protector; light scout; fast transport; minelayer; Q-ship; training ship; patrol craft... As many of them require additional space, she has wide superstructure (which can be partially deconstructed, if needed). Also her silhouette looks like innocent liner which should help her mask.
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Post by gornik on Jul 1, 2015 15:27:18 GMT -6
And new visualisations - Vliegende Faam DD leader: Lont op Kruitvat counter-destroyer: Arcanne torpedo gunboat: Unfortunately, this program can't create pre-WWI battleships (maybe except French-like ones with lots of turrets)
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Post by brucesim2003 on Jul 2, 2015 7:27:14 GMT -6
Ok so saying that clipper bows didn't exist was a bit of an exaggeration. But two of the examples you have there have bowsprits. That's gonna change your bow shape just to support them. And you notice only Nautilus has any real superstructure. The biggest of them (the Tone) has none of note at all. And if you go much bigger than her (about 4,500 tons iirc), then you aren't a colonial cruiser any more. Not trying to disparage your efforts, it's just that I reckon if you are gonna draw your designs, you might as well make 'em look the part. 25 years ago when I started getting interested in historical warships, I had to use pencil, compass, and set squares etc, so I understand the fascination. That last crop look a lot better. All you need now are some nice lofty masts. What is missing for pre-WW1 dreadnoughts? The only thing I can think of is it's not got a lot of options for tripod and basket masts, though there are some tripods there iirc. Been a while since I used that program. I have the stand alone one, which I think pre-dated the online program. Just to show what can be done with the stand alone program, here are a couple of my designs from a few years ago. 1st is a dedicated convoy escort from the late 20's/early 30s. 2nd is a generic battlewagon from about 1936, though she looks a bit british. Cheers Bruce
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 2, 2015 8:20:44 GMT -6
I sure enjoy both your designs, I can't draw a lick, never could. It's a little late to start but I can and will enjoy all of your drawings. What drawing programs do all of you use? Just in case I get inventive. Maybe if I upload some DesignShip and Springsharp designs, you two clever artists can make a drawing for me to download. I know how to use Springsharp and DesignShip pretty well so I can help you. We can be a Naval Construction team.
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Post by brucesim2003 on Jul 2, 2015 8:38:15 GMT -6
It's not a drawing progamme per se, more a "input dimensions and plot superstructure points - here's your ship" programme. The online version is here. I think the stand alone version has long disappeared. Once you figure it out, the programme is really easy to use - the '36 battlewagon took 20 mins or so iirc. A lot of the dimensions etc that you need you can take right out of springsharp. Cheers Bruce
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