|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 2, 2015 9:40:44 GMT -6
It's not a drawing progamme per se, more a "input dimensions and plot superstructure points - here's your ship" programme. The online version is here. I think the stand alone version has long disappeared. Once you figure it out, the programme is really easy to use - the '36 battlewagon took 20 mins or so iirc. A lot of the dimensions etc that you need you can take right out of springsharp. Cheers Bruce Thanks Bruce, I had the standalone years ago and could not find it again. It worked well for me. BTW, in researching Naval ship design using period books, the formula for freeboard was 1.1 x Sqrt. of Lwl. After WWII, it was modified to 1.3.
|
|
|
Post by gornik on Jul 2, 2015 13:48:07 GMT -6
Ok so saying that clipper bows didn't exist was a bit of an exaggeration. But two of the examples you have there have bowsprits. That's gonna change your bow shape just to support them. And you notice only Nautilus has any real superstructure. The biggest of them (the Tone) has none of note at all. And if you go much bigger than her (about 4,500 tons iirc), then you aren't a colonial cruiser any more. Eiken should be less than 3000 tons, and she is not "clear" cruiser, designed for battles, like Tone. Her main "combat" operations may be: spot enemy warships and ran out, sending radiograms for nearby ships; or: meet modern enemy cruiser, launch torpedoes at her and if miss, scuttle herself singing national hymn Heh, my first idea was to draw them with pen, but this need time I don't have now. Maybe later... Main problem for me are casemates - most of my designs have even main calibre guns partially there. Also gun mounts look far more modern than needed. BTW, your program looks much more full, than mine (salvaged from page you linked some weeks ago). There are no masts, no rangefinders, no boats, no cranes and no planes... May you upload your version to some filehosting, please? I really love first one! Hope one day option of 2-nd main calibre will appear in SAI to make such gun configuration possible
|
|
|
Post by gornik on Jul 2, 2015 16:13:42 GMT -6
Here is OldPop's Calliope as I see her: I finally find the way to create masts! From funnels
|
|
|
Post by brucesim2003 on Jul 2, 2015 18:51:18 GMT -6
I would upload it, but I'm not sure where it would stand re: author's permission. Don't wanna step on anyones toes in that aspect. The zipfile is dated from 2007, and I haven't seen the author on any fora for years.
Re: your Eiken class. Everything you say about WHAT she intends to do screams "colonial cruiser". As I said before, colonial cruisers were mostly glorified gunboats. So nominating her roles and then saying she's not a colonial cruiser is contradictory. Either you need to revise the roles intended for her, or get on board with the humble dogsbody ship you are describing her to be.
As for my designs, the Trampler (convoy escort) doesn't have mixed main armament. It's just the 6" secondaries are in centerline superfiring positions.
Edit: I've put a post on another forum to see if the author of the programme can be tracked down so as to get permission to share the standalone version. Here's hoping.
Cheers
Bruce
|
|
|
Post by gornik on Jul 3, 2015 13:00:22 GMT -6
I would upload it, but I'm not sure where it would stand re: author's permission. Don't wanna step on anyones toes in that aspect. The zipfile is dated from 2007, and I haven't seen the author on any fora for years. OK, you are right. Hope you find him. BTW, I recognised he did also simplier version of his program for French ships, which can be found here: linkHer classification updated - now Oude Eiken is "fast colonial sloop" (of course this means gunboat once again, but her 26-knot speed needs to be noted as the only feature which makes her reliable for me.) Sorry to unclear post, I mean possibility to choose secondary guns positions in different locations as we do with main ones.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 3, 2015 14:11:24 GMT -6
I did some research in Jane's of 1900 and 1905 along with two other period sources about colonial cruisers. There wasn't a specification in many cases for them. However they were all about 221 feet x 40 feet with a modest draft. The freeboard varied but a good sea boat was important. Machinery was generally twin screws, single expansion reciprocating or simply steam engines. This was done to keep maintenance simple due to the distance from the main shipyards. They were not fast, about 15-20 knots but not specified at that speed by the written design specifications issued to the builder, modest range and no armor. Armament was not heavy, maybe 4 x 4.2 inch guns and two single torpedo tubes. They were dispatch ships and show the flag vessels along with antipiracy vessels. By 1914, the light cruisers had replaced them.
There were classes of river boats and shallow draft gunboats. Many had been built in the colony areas prior to 1880. Some were two masted schooners. Almost all were about 100-180 feet in length and narrow with one steam engine.
Note: In December of 1904, First Sea Lord Admiral Jackie Fisher officially scrapped British gunboats although by 1914, they were still in service in many far colonies but they were now obsolete after Dreadnought and the battle cruisers. At least that was the theory. Fisher scrapped about 90 of these river gunboats and such stating that they were too undergunned to fight and to slow to run.
|
|
|
Post by gornik on Jul 3, 2015 14:45:38 GMT -6
After reading RTW discussion and manual I decided to create early game CA with more traditional design than mighty Olifant on a case if rule of "2 main turrets only" works for this class too. Here is the result: Taurox.sship (1.06 KB) Taurox.ssr (5.72 KB) She is reasonably stronger than strongest of real CAs of period (Good Hope and Iwate, as I find while testing). However, she is not very original: as I understood after testing she is no more than bigger Iwate with +1" to every gun in cost of +3500 tons. Don't sure it's worth it, so thinking continues
|
|
|
Post by gornik on Jul 3, 2015 18:01:57 GMT -6
Another mad idea, which working in SAI: circa 1900 All-QF-gun battlecruiser Trummel (Drum) Trummel.sship (1.06 KB) Trummel.ssr (5.55 KB) Trummel.sdf (4.26 KB) Her main goal is to make fires and critical hits at enemy ships showering them with explosive shells from short distance. Result is great-even strongest battleships usually have only few minutes to damage and slow Trummels before all gunners need to go fight with fires; and CAs don't have even chance to deal with them in comparable numbers. Seem I found ideal early crossing-T ship Maybe I'll find the way to add her torpedo mounts and bulkheads to make her even more mighty
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 5, 2015 10:46:15 GMT -6
I made some mods to the design of your corsair gunboat. In the first redesign, I replaced the turbines with simple reciprocating direct drive engines and lowered the speed to 22 knots. I decreased the range to 3000 miles. For a simple gunboat, if that is what you were attempting to design, she is undergunned. torpedoes in this time period were notoriously unreliable and inaccurate. Unless this gunboat can get within 3000 yards, they will be useless.
The second redesign increases the beam to 20 feet and reduces the LtoB to 5.55:1 which is inline with most of the classes of gunboats. However, she is still far too heavy. Engines are the same as the other design and same range. Speed for this version is still 22 knots. Steam turbines were expensive at this age and only produced by a few manufacturers for dreadnoughts and battle cruisers. Parsons, Curtis were just a few. Cost of procurement and installation plus testing was far higher than the need in the gunboats. Most gunboats were built by small shipyards, some on the Thames, some on the Rhine and other rivers in Europe. The recips were far cheaper and easier to install and maintain. Total cost was important to most major naval powers, for small countries with limited naval budgets and water front areas it was imperative to keep the cost of the boats at a lower price, especially if you are farming the design and construction to another country like England at the Thames. There were gunboats, specifically the Stor Gunboats circa 1918 for the Austro-Hungarian Navy that did have AEG Steam Turbines, others did also, but were at least a decade in the future. The engine change was my choice based on the reduction of cost.
Oude Eiken.ssr (4.4 KB)
Oude Eiken2.ssr (4.38 KB)
|
|
|
Post by gornik on Jul 5, 2015 12:53:46 GMT -6
I made some mods to the design of your corsair gunboat. In the first redesign, I replaced the turbines with simple reciprocating direct drive engines and lowered the speed to 22 knots. I decreased the range to 3000 miles. For a simple gunboat, if that is what you were attempting to design, she is undergunned. torpedoes in this time period were notoriously unreliable and inaccurate. Unless this gunboat can get within 3000 yards, they will be useless.
The second redesign increases the beam to 20 feet and reduces the LtoB to 5.55:1 which is inline with most of the classes of gunboats. However, she is still far too heavy. Engines are the same as the other design and same range. Speed for this version is still 22 knots. Steam turbines were expensive at this age and only produced by a few manufacturers for dreadnoughts and battle cruisers. Parsons, Curtis were just a few. Cost of procurement and installation plus testing was far higher than the need in the gunboats. Most gunboats were built by small shipyards, some on the Thames, some on the Rhine and other rivers in Europe. The recips were far cheaper and easier to install and maintain. Total cost was important to most major naval powers, for small countries with limited naval budgets and water front areas it was imperative to keep the cost of the boats at a lower price, especially if you are farming the design and construction to another country like England at the Thames. There were gunboats, specifically the Stor Gunboats circa 1918 for the Austro-Hungarian Navy that did have AEG Steam Turbines, others did also, but were at least a decade in the future. The engine change was my choice based on the reduction of cost. Decreasing speed and range ruins my plan of Eikens usage. 22 knots make ship too vulnerable for meeting with even oldest cruiser, so operating in enemy waters become more suicidal rather than "just" dangerous. Price shouldn't be impossible, of course, but according to the internet, difference between SMS Dresden (turbines, 7,5 mln marks) and SMS Emden (triple expansion, 6 mln marks) was 1,25, so installing turbines means that 3 ships will be built instead of 4. That is the price I may pay. Also I thought about price reduction from the other side: I hope to build some light scouts for early game in nearly same dimensions. Why can't fleet then use their hulls for rebuilding in clear Eikens? (Note: I think now mostly about game, IRL such refit certainly should cost more than new ship). As for torpedoes, they are here only for faster finishing off large merchants and for last resort in short range engagement. Again about Eiken concept: She may be described as auxiliary cruiser, being built for regular peacetime naval service and thus having some advantages when war breaks out (no need to arm and adapt ship, trained crew, some protection for vital parts, central fire control and last but not least - she is always in right place) She carries out colonial duties only in so far as she anyway should stay there. And if war begins when she is at home base under repair/refit, she still can be useful at patrol/minelaying/ASW.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 5, 2015 14:37:54 GMT -6
I made some mods to the design of your corsair gunboat. In the first redesign, I replaced the turbines with simple reciprocating direct drive engines and lowered the speed to 22 knots. I decreased the range to 3000 miles. For a simple gunboat, if that is what you were attempting to design, she is undergunned. torpedoes in this time period were notoriously unreliable and inaccurate. Unless this gunboat can get within 3000 yards, they will be useless.
The second redesign increases the beam to 20 feet and reduces the LtoB to 5.55:1 which is inline with most of the classes of gunboats. However, she is still far too heavy. Engines are the same as the other design and same range. Speed for this version is still 22 knots. Steam turbines were expensive at this age and only produced by a few manufacturers for dreadnoughts and battle cruisers. Parsons, Curtis were just a few. Cost of procurement and installation plus testing was far higher than the need in the gunboats. Most gunboats were built by small shipyards, some on the Thames, some on the Rhine and other rivers in Europe. The recips were far cheaper and easier to install and maintain. Total cost was important to most major naval powers, for small countries with limited naval budgets and water front areas it was imperative to keep the cost of the boats at a lower price, especially if you are farming the design and construction to another country like England at the Thames. There were gunboats, specifically the Stor Gunboats circa 1918 for the Austro-Hungarian Navy that did have AEG Steam Turbines, others did also, but were at least a decade in the future. The engine change was my choice based on the reduction of cost. Decreasing speed and range ruins my plan of Eikens usage. 22 knots make ship too vulnerable for meeting with even oldest cruiser, so operating in enemy waters become more suicidal rather than "just" dangerous. Price shouldn't be impossible, of course, but according to the internet, difference between SMS Dresden (turbines, 7,5 mln marks) and SMS Emden (triple expansion, 6 mln marks) was 1,25, so installing turbines means that 3 ships will be built instead of 4. That is the price I may pay. Also I thought about price reduction from the other side: I hope to build some light scouts for early game in nearly same dimensions. Why can't fleet then use their hulls for rebuilding in clear Eikens? (Note: I think now mostly about game, IRL such refit certainly should cost more than new ship). As for torpedoes, they are here only for faster finishing off large merchants and for last resort in short range engagement. Again about Eiken concept: She may be described as auxiliary cruiser, being built for regular peacetime naval service and thus having some advantages when war breaks out (no need to arm and adapt ship, trained crew, some protection for vital parts, central fire control and last but not least - she is always in right place) She carries out colonial duties only in so far as she anyway should stay there. And if war begins when she is at home base under repair/refit, she still can be useful at patrol/minelaying/ASW. Ok, well you have an idea of what you want so I shall stay out of it. Let us know how this all works in the game. It's been fun.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 7, 2015 19:21:01 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by brucesim2003 on Jul 8, 2015 0:42:13 GMT -6
Had a bo peep at your Alaska. That's a shyte load of coal it's carrying. you'd need 2-3 colliers (of the day) just for her. One small quibble....I don't think 4.2" was a caliber that was used by the USN. Make them either 4" or (more likely) 5". And make the QF guns instead of BLR's.
Cheers
Bruce
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 8, 2015 7:47:38 GMT -6
Had a bo peep at your Alaska. That's a shyte load of coal it's carrying. you'd need 2-3 colliers (of the day) just for her. One small quibble....I don't think 4.2" was a caliber that was used by the USN. Make them either 4" or (more likely) 5". And make the QF guns instead of BLR's. Cheers Bruce I didn't really have enough time to research and perfect the design. I am going to produce a 1915 version today.
Update: Here is the 1915 design for the Alaska Class battlecruiser- She now has oil fired boilers, and geared turbines with an increase in speed of 34 knots. I replaced the secondary batteries with 5 in 51 cal. in single deck mounts.
Alaska1915.sship (1.12 KB)
Alaska1915.ssr (4.85 KB)
I am going to do some extensive research about the Alaska's to see if the design dates back about thirty years before 1941.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 8, 2015 8:55:12 GMT -6
|
|