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Post by dizzy on Feb 15, 2020 16:57:33 GMT -6
Deck Armor was 5.5" and I used a 1400lb AP from a DB with Improved DB tech in 1941. Anyone know why this didn't penetrate a 'Hull Hit D'? The D stands for Deck, yes, and no asterisk means no penetration? Was this a Trojan Deck? I'm testing my mods for compatibility and this is my first game since v1.10, so a lot has changed. I was wondering if this AP Bomb Chart is still accurate? NoDeckPen1.png (58.53 KB)
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Feb 15, 2020 17:58:29 GMT -6
If the question is relating to the "100% penetration" for 6" deck armor on Christian's chart, perhaps not enough trials were run on 5" Deck armor to isolate the true percentages. Perhaps it is 95%. Considering that 1400lb bomb was right next to another 1400lb bomb that did penetrate, and furthermore penetrated the usually more resistant engine room area, I would chalk it up to a fluke, an outlier.
I haven't encountered an unusual rate of bomb penetration in my testing, as far as I know game performance has been consistent across updates here.
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Post by dizzy on Feb 15, 2020 22:51:09 GMT -6
Just had a 500lb AP Bomb pen my BB’s 6.5” Deck. It was a ‘Hull hit D* Engines Disabled’ hit. I’ll post the pic later. That’s five full columns in the wrong direction for a 500 pounder. What’s going on? Off topic: Bloody hell, since the game has had start positions redone, I had an invasion defense mission that stretched my forces thin and beat me senseless. Fought three separate enemy groups, a BC scout force, a carrier force, and a transport fleet with battleship cover. What a challenging mission. I lost half of my capital ship fleet, and 34 total ships out of 56 ships were sunk. New features since v1.10 sure have made this game more fun. But these freak bomb pens are starting to worry me. NoDeckPen2.png (61.33 KB) NoDeckPen3.png (57.62 KB)
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Post by generalvikus on Feb 15, 2020 23:09:05 GMT -6
If there were a problem with 'flukes' being over - represented, then I think it would be better to have no flukes at all.
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Post by 13th Fleet on Feb 16, 2020 8:33:17 GMT -6
Just had a 500lb AP Bomb pen my BB’s 6.5” Deck. It was a ‘Hull hit D* Engines Disabled’ hit. I’ll post the pic later. That’s five full columns in the wrong direction for a 500 pounder. What’s going on? Off topic: Bloody hell, since the game has had start positions redone, I had an invasion defense mission that stretched my forces thin and beat me senseless. Fought three separate enemy groups, a BC scout force, a carrier force, and a transport fleet with battleship cover. What a challenging mission. I lost half of my capital ship fleet, and 34 total ships out of 56 ships were sunk. New features since v1.10 sure have made this game more fun. But these freak bomb pens are starting to worry me. That sounds like a bomb that went down a funnel. Armor schemes are never uniform, simply because there need to be gaps and weaknesses to allow for the armored object to be constructed and function. Funnels are a big one for armored decks because they have to be a certain size and they're generally near the center of the ship, right where you'd be aiming at when targeting it. You should also note that the chart is honestly a little misleading, as it lumps everything above 70% into the 100% and everything below 30% into 0%. Additionally, the chart notes a lucky hit from a 500 lb bomb penetrating a 5.5" deck. Pen1 should really be read as "likely to resist" and Pen0 as "likely to penetrate" as opposed to "will/won't penetrate."
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Post by williammiller on Feb 16, 2020 11:15:17 GMT -6
As a note on this, a typical late-1930s-era BB had approx 8-14% of its protected deck area covered by *less* than its 'listed' deck protection thickness for each section (foredeck, main deck, etc) according to a 1945 study.
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Post by dorn on Feb 16, 2020 11:17:50 GMT -6
As a note on this, a typical mid-1930s-era BB had approx 8-14% of its protected deck area covered by *less* than its 'listed' deck protection thickness for each section (foredeck, main deck, etc) according to a 1945 study. Is this study available? It could be quite interesting reading.
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Post by williammiller on Feb 16, 2020 11:24:29 GMT -6
As a note on this, a typical mid-1930s-era BB had approx 8-14% of its protected deck area covered by *less* than its 'listed' deck protection thickness for each section (foredeck, main deck, etc) according to a 1945 study. Is this study available? It could be quite interesting reading. Unfortunately I don't have direct access to the study, the above is from a footnote in an article that Dr. Friedman wrote a number of years back on armor protection of BBs in an issue of Naval History magazine. Secondary info to be sure, but since its Friedman in a major publication Id say its prob accurate Note: I corrected one item, it stated 'late-1930s', not "mid-1930s".
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Post by dizzy on Feb 18, 2020 0:08:31 GMT -6
The Rodney above was example one. Here are three additional examples. 13th Fleet mentioned going down the funnel. Is the game programmed to that level of detail? It still wouldn't explain the examples of the bombs failing to pen that should have, like the Richelieu where a 1400lb bomb didn't make it thru 5" of deck or the Royal Oak's 2.5" deck. How can a 1400lb Bomb NOT make it thru 2.5 inches of armor?? NoDeckPen4.png (64.87 KB)
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Post by dorn on Feb 18, 2020 0:25:18 GMT -6
dizzyIt could be possible. A lot of things are about release height. By the release height you can swap penetration and accuracy quite a lot. To hava good idea how it works in RTW2 you need quite large number of hits to make reasonable statistics. Frankly speaking it seems to a little off but it is more feeling as I have no statistics to show it. And I believe that NWS team looked at it and made statistics by functions implemented in RTW2 (I remember Fredrik mentioned doing so for gunfire). I think it could help if hits which go through less armoured deck will be marked somehow to get information that such hit do not go through main deck armour.
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Post by generalvikus on Feb 18, 2020 2:14:42 GMT -6
williammiller It seems release height (and presumably release speed?) are the key variables here. How does the game handle this, and could some more pertinent information be displayed in the log for each hit, so that we can all start to collect data on the matter and figure out what's going on?
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Post by 13th Fleet on Feb 18, 2020 6:36:57 GMT -6
The Rodney above was example one. Here are three additional examples. 13th Fleet mentioned going down the funnel. Is the game programmed to that level of detail? It still wouldn't explain the examples of the bombs failing to pen that should have, like the Richelieu where a 1400lb bomb didn't make it thru 5" of deck or the Royal Oak's 2.5" deck. How can a 1400lb Bomb NOT make it thru 2.5 inches of armor?? You can account for an awful lot of things in a single dice roll. Weak points and gaps can be accounted for by making it so that the probability of a penetration is never zero. Things like a bomb being defective in some way or hitting the ship in a weird way that hinders penetration can be accounted for by making it so that the probability of a penetration is never one.
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Post by dizzy on Feb 18, 2020 9:48:39 GMT -6
Duds are already accounted for in the log. I've looked at historical charts showing the various types of dive bombs and the fuses used. Japan used a 0.2 second delayed fuse to allow 40-50' of deck penetration to reach areas of a ship to cause flooding while the USA had a 0.1 fuse to tear up carrier decks and hangars. It's inconceivable that a 1400lb dive bomb wouldn't penetrate 2.5" of deck armor when historically a 500lb bomb could go through 5" or more of armor.
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Post by williammiller on Feb 18, 2020 10:24:50 GMT -6
I'll ask Fredrik W to take a look at the bomb pen code to make sure there are no 'near-impossible outliers' getting by.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 12:48:15 GMT -6
I dunno, the game seems just a bit too random. I would prefer a "less random than IRL" simplification over "more random than IRL" simplification. If there are too many exceptions, the rules cease to exist.
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