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Post by rimbecano on Sept 24, 2018 21:37:43 GMT -6
I think he may be having trouble judging how to get into firing position without slowing to 15kt.
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Post by hardlec on Sept 28, 2018 11:41:16 GMT -6
Okay:
The AI seems to have no restrictions on its use of torpedoes. In battles, the AIs DDs will scream in at full speed, do a tight turn and launch torpedoes at my capital ships. My DDs will not make torpedo attacks on my opponent's capital ships. I have sacrificed gun positions to carry as many TTs as possible on my DDs. I have paid for advanced training in torpedo warfare. I have priority on torpedoes and light warfare research. I have flotilla attack. ALL of these. In order for my ships to automatically use TTs, I must be going less than 15 Kts and my target must be stationary. If my opponent's ships are stationary my DDs might make an attack. They will finish off already badly damaged ships, and nothing else.
Yesterday I had a major fleet action. I crossed my opponents T twice and raked my opponents stern in between. I sank one B and damaged the rest of the battle line. Then my opponent conducted a torpedo attack and sank one of my Bs.
Not put off, I set back to work and sank another capital ship. Again I was on the receiving end of a torpedo attack and lost another battleship. One is bad luck. Twice is a pattern. My interpretation is that when the AI gets in trouble, I suffer a torpedo attack.
I have the best torpedo technology available, the best training available, and DDs that are new and heavily armed. And they come home with their torpedoes still in their tubes.
If I go to captain's level, I can manually shoot TTs. I get hardly any VP for action, and I'm pretty much limited to 15 Kts and shooting at a stationary target.
Now: Strategically and tactically I have no problem. I can't tolerate the fact that even 'tho I've ginned up my torpedo abilities as much as possible, my DD's won't launch.
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Post by dorn on Sept 28, 2018 12:11:14 GMT -6
Okay: The AI seems to have no restrictions on its use of torpedoes. In battles, the AIs DDs will scream in at full speed, do a tight turn and launch torpedoes at my capital ships. My DDs will not make torpedo attacks on my opponent's capital ships. I have sacrificed gun positions to carry as many TTs as possible on my DDs. I have paid for advanced training in torpedo warfare. I have priority on torpedoes and light warfare research. I have flotilla attack. ALL of these. In order for my ships to automatically use TTs, I must be going less than 15 Kts and my target must be stationary. If my opponent's ships are stationary my DDs might make an attack. They will finish off already badly damaged ships, and nothing else. Yesterday I had a major fleet action. I crossed my opponents T twice and raked my opponents stern in between. I sank one B and damaged the rest of the battle line. Then my opponent conducted a torpedo attack and sank one of my Bs. Not put off, I set back to work and sank another capital ship. Again I was on the receiving end of a torpedo attack and lost another battleship. One is bad luck. Twice is a pattern. My interpretation is that when the AI gets in trouble, I suffer a torpedo attack. I have the best torpedo technology available, the best training available, and DDs that are new and heavily armed. And they come home with their torpedoes still in their tubes. If I go to captain's level, I can manually shoot TTs. I get hardly any VP for action, and I'm pretty much limited to 15 Kts and shooting at a stationary target. Now: Strategically and tactically I have no problem. I can't tolerate the fact that even 'tho I've ginned up my torpedo abilities as much as possible, my DD's won't launch. Send some screenshots we can look and information about year. I do not understand why you decrease range and go into torpedo zone at all. Is this reason you pressed advance and push on AI a lot?
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Post by aeson on Sept 28, 2018 14:43:43 GMT -6
I've never once had to get my destroyers to slow down in order to launch torpedoes. Player-side destroyers under computer control tend to be reluctant to launch torpedoes when: - Torpedo technology is bad - Launching position is bad - Few torpedoes are carried Note that torpedo quality affects the quality of a launching position.
This unfortunately tells us basically nothing about your destroyer designs, other than that you consider the gun armament relatively light and the torpedo armament relatively heavy. Two destroyer designs which both "sacrifice gun positions to carry as many torpedo tubes as possible" can be very different depending on what other design choices you make. For example: Four different legal 500t legacy DD designs which all carry "as many torpedo tubes as possible" at the expense of their gun armaments. Unless you share your designs, we do not know how you design your destroyers; neither I nor anyone else on these forums aside from you know whether you mean something like A, something like B, something like C, something like D, or something else entirely when you say that you traded away guns for torpedoes on your destroyers (though D is admittedly rather unlikely). As the game progresses, ever more varied designs become possible. And this translates to what, exactly? "The best torpedo technology available" is very different in 1905 than it is in 1915, both are very different from that in 1925, and all three are different from that in 1935. Getting a destroyer into position to torpedo a capital ship in 1903 with torpedoes that can only go 900 yards at 28 knots or 2,500 yards at 15 knots is significantly more difficult than getting a destroyer into position to torpedo a capital ship in 1914 with torpedoes that can go 4,500 yards at 37 knots and 10,000 yards at 27 knots, and getting either of those into position to torpedo a capital ship is more difficult than getting a destroyer into position to torpedo a capital ship in 1930 with torpedoes that can go 5,000 yards at 38 knots and 18,000 yards at 27 knots.
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Post by hardlec on Sept 28, 2018 15:51:25 GMT -6
Saved screen shots were added to this post. Note that while I have sunk the prerequisite ships, points were not awarded as they should have been. I have no trouble getting into position to launch torpedoes, except for the fact that the AIs ships will use torpedoes and mine will not. Because of this, I get torpedoed a lot. Attachments:
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Post by aeson on Sept 28, 2018 17:06:13 GMT -6
It's only 1906 in your game. Torpedoes are generally still not very good at that stage of the game - your torpedoes are probably only good for 2kyd@28kn/4kyd@18kn or maybe 3kyd@28kn/5kyd@20kn - which means that your destroyers have to get close (within 4000-5000 yards) in order to launch torpedoes at all and very close (within 2000-3000 yards) to use the high-speed setting on the torpedoes. Your destroyers probably just aren't getting into sufficiently good positions to use the high-speed setting or have a reasonable chance of hitting the target at the low-speed setting, and might additionally be suffering from reluctance to venture a low-probability shot because they don't have enough tubes to take more than a few shots depending on what your destroyers actually look like.
Also, hardlec, if you want specific advice about how to improve your use of your destroyers, you need to give us better information about how you're actually using your destroyers. You're telling us that you're getting your destroyers into good positions but at the same time you're telling us that your destroyers aren't launching torpedoes, which suggests that your destroyers are not actually in good positions to launch torpedo attacks when you think that they are. You gave us the battle results screen, but the battle results screen doesn't really give us any useful information about how you're using your destroyers - a battle plot (which the game can produce after you close the post-battle summary but before you exit the simulation if you click the button that has a pair of red lines) might be more useful, as might an image where we can see where your ships are, where your opponents' ships are, and where your torpedo range circle is when you think your destroyers are in a good position to launch a torpedo attack. You haven't given us any real information on what your destroyer designs look like, other than that you think that you've given them heavy torpedo armaments and light gun armaments. If you want general advice about how to use destroyers - which is about all that we can give based on the information you've provided - well, we've already given it; if you want specific advice about how to improve your use of destroyers, you need to give us better information about what you're actually doing.
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Post by boomboomf22 on Sept 28, 2018 21:53:22 GMT -6
Saved screen shots were added to this post. Note that while I have sunk the prerequisite ships, points were not awarded as they should have been. I have no trouble getting into position to launch torpedoes, except for the fact that the AIs ships will use torpedoes and mine will not. Because of this, I get torpedoed a lot. Regarding your screenshots, this has been brought up as a potential bug in the bugs thread before, but if the ships you sink are to far away(vague I know but it seems a bit random) from the objective circle displayed on coastal raids they don't count. Note: you can see the circle by going to the objectives tab during the mission and clicking on the objective. Additionally as a likely bug thems the breaks, nothing to do but smile and take it. The devs aren't doing much more bug fixing(if any) cause they are hard at work on RTW2. (SO HYPED for it)
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Post by archelaos on Sept 29, 2018 0:39:44 GMT -6
Saved screen shots were added to this post. Note that while I have sunk the prerequisite ships, points were not awarded as they should have been. I have no trouble getting into position to launch torpedoes, except for the fact that the AIs ships will use torpedoes and mine will not. Because of this, I get torpedoed a lot.
Successfully torpedoing DDs during early game is almost impossible (as should be expected - trying to hit a ship going 27-28kts with 28kts projectile). That's why you would need DDs with good guns to decisively win DD battles (as per history destroyer comes from torpedo boat destroyer that appeared when navies started installing guns on torpedo boats).
No matter what, DD battles will not generate too much VPs, they are great though in reducing their numbers and pay off later when enemy will not have proper DD screen in capital battles.
You will get less VPs in captain mode, but it's still perfectly enough to decisively win wars.
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Post by hardlec on Sept 30, 2018 8:56:29 GMT -6
archelaos: This is a reasonable and sagacious reply. I'd love to believe this.
In a battle I had a couple of says ago, it was 1910. I played Germany and had a major fleet action against Russia. I crossed the Russians T twice, and raked their stern in between, sinking a battleship and scoring hits on their whole battle line. I then got torpedoed and lost a battleship. I crossed the Russian's T again, and got torpedoed and lost another battleship. I was not allowed to use any torpedoes back. This is a serious problem. The AI should use the same limits the human player has. It should not be able to use torpedoes like it's 1925 when it's 1910.
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Post by hardlec on Sept 30, 2018 9:05:59 GMT -6
boomboomf22
The human players objectives should be clearly spelled out. The only thing I've ever seen under objectives is:
Sink X ships (any) or Sink X Trs.
The only way I know I'm defending a convoy is if I check the OB and find transports. So the human player should see: Sink 2 ships within XXX nautical miles of ZZZ
If casualties must be inflicted within an objective radius, then the Computer can't legally mine or torpedo my ships "while retiring" and get full points for them.
Bad luck should not be under the AI's control.
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Post by hardlec on Sept 30, 2018 9:22:12 GMT -6
aeson
In large fleet battles, my DDs are under AI control.
In small battles I attack from dead astern mostly (now) to avoid enemy TTs. I used to try to get slightly ahead and parallel to my target for a torpedo attack. If I have damaged an enemy ship and it is reduced to 15 kts or less, I will come parallel to the enemy and slow to 15 kts. and at about 50% of torpedo range. I should be scoring hits. My torpedoes stay in their tubes.
Mind you: I am NOT complaining my torpedoes miss. They won't launch.
My early DDs have 2 4-inch guns and three TTs. As I wanted to use this game to play out alternative historical events, I am in no way going to invest my time in cheeseball designs.
I have found a serious flaw in this game. That doesn't make me stupid. I pay for advanced torpedo warfare training. I put torpedo technology and light unit warfare as design priorities. by 1905 I'm selling torpedo tech to other nations. My tech is the best available AT THE TIME.
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Post by boomboomf22 on Sept 30, 2018 10:33:08 GMT -6
boomboomf22 The human players objectives should be clearly spelled out. The only thing I've ever seen under objectives is: Sink X ships (any) or Sink X Trs. The only way I know I'm defending a convoy is if I check the OB and find transports. So the human player should see: Sink 2 ships within XXX nautical miles of ZZZ If casualties must be inflicted within an objective radius, then the Computer can't legally mine or torpedo my ships "while retiring" and get full points for them. Bad luck should not be under the AI's control. I'm sorry but you seem to have missed the part where I mentioned it was a likely bug, as it does not happen on all coastal raid missions and seems confined to that mission type. Additionally re your other complaints and statements in a fleet battle A: never bring your battle line into torpedo range circa 1915 or they will be torpedoed and sunk. If you see DD moving toward or entering torpedo range (have the range circles turned on) evade, or stop complaining about being torpedoed. To my experience (and I suspect others would support me in this) slowing down to 15kts and running parallel up the side of an enemy ship from the rear is a really good way to fail to launch torps and to get torpedoed yourself going slow doesn't increase your launch chance(to my knowledge and experience) it just makes it easier for enemy guns and torps to aim. In such a situation approaching from the side at the oblique at high speed is a much better choice to avoid torping and for achieving a launch angle.
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Post by hardlec on Sept 30, 2018 10:39:55 GMT -6
none of which answers my question of why my torpedoes won't launch even when O am slightly ahead of and parallel to my opponent.
Yes, this game is a buggy mess, and I'm about ready to uninstall.
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foarp
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by foarp on Oct 7, 2018 5:31:11 GMT -6
Why do you consider it suspicious? My experience is that when you keep a specific computer-designed and -built ship continuously engaged long enough for a player-designed ship that has significantly more ammunition than is typical of computer designs to get a 20% main battery ammunition remaining warning, the computer's ship tends to want to run away and often doesn't appear to be firing its main battery guns much, if at all, suggesting that it's short on or out of main battery ammunition.
Also, my understanding is that 90 rounds per gun is about right for historical battleship main battery ammunition stowage in the period covered by the game.
It looks suspicious to me because in early battles, before Director fire control, I frequently have to order my ships to hold fire to conserve ammunition at long range. By comparison the AI ships open fire as soon as they enter range, and then keep firing throughout engagements, including for example in long and distant stern chases when again I will have ordered my ship(s) to hold fire.
It looks odd to me that the AI can fire indefinitely carrying 90 rounds per gun whilst my ships cannot do so with 140 rounds per gun.
Yeah, I've never had a game where I was sure that the AI had run out of ammo. They always seemed able to fire for the entire engagement. However, there's a confirmation bias aspect to this.
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Post by bcoopactual on Oct 7, 2018 6:02:34 GMT -6
I don't think the AI is cheating but there is a way to see how much ammo the AI ships have remaining at the end of a battle. Click the details button on the results screen and then double click any AI ship listing in the detail screen and it will bring up the detailed view of the enemy ship, even ones in port or sunk and you can look at the ammo remaining on the left side of the screen.
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