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Post by generalvikus on Jun 24, 2019 11:44:01 GMT -6
Hey guys,
In my last two fleet battles I've had an assortment of 21, 23, 24, 27, and 31 knot capital ships in the Northern European theater. The problem, of course, is that the game does not know how to group these together sensibly, and rather than lumping ships of similar speeds together, the game has seemingly gone out of its way to make sure that every battle division that can possibly be saddled with at least one 21 knot ship will be.
I'd like to know - has anybody discovered a way of making the OB generator work for them? Is there a rule such as 'always group ships of the same speed class in multiples of 3 or 4' which allow the player to force the game to give him a sensible order of battle? If so, do you have a way to make such a system work despite RNG events, like ships being torpedoed, mined and so on?
Furthermore, on both of the occasions in question, I had no scouting force; in the last battle, for instance, two BCs and three 'fast' BBs were placed out in front of my main force, but still under its command and unable to sail out of sight of the flagship without reverting to AI control. Does anybody know why this problem occurs, and how it can be fixed?
Considering all of this, I'd like to also take the opportunity to express my strong support for adapting the fleet exercise OB creator for all battles. The game should tell the player which forces are available, as it does now, and then allow him to organise them as he sees fit. This is a much - needed change and, in my opinion, the method of improving the game which would be most effective while, presumably, requiring only minimal effort.
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Post by baky123 on Jun 24, 2019 11:49:14 GMT -6
Something which doesn't solve your issue but is a quick work around is to manually set divisions to the minimum speed you want the ships in the division to have. Then the slower ships fall behind, and you get the notification of "HMS XX cannot keep up with the division, would you like to detatch her?". Press yes to detach and the slower ship will be detached. Then assign it to another squadron as core and it should then join the slower squadron.
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Post by generalvikus on Jun 24, 2019 12:06:43 GMT -6
Something which doesn't solve your issue but is a quick work around is to manually set divisions to the minimum speed you want the ships in the division to have. Then the slower ships fall behind, and you get the notification of "HMS XX cannot keep up with the division, would you like to detatch her?". Press yes to detach and the slower ship will be detached. Then assign it to another squadron as core and it should then join the slower squadron. Thank you very much, that's an excellent solution! |
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jma286
Junior Member
Posts: 97 
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Post by jma286 on Jun 24, 2019 12:44:00 GMT -6
I think it would be nice if the battle simulator (in fleet battles) grouped ships more by class and speed. Historically this is what the major navies did during WW1. I know that the battle simulator has a randomness component but in fleet battles where a lot of ships sortie in an organized fashion it doesn't make much sense to throw a 1910 21 knot BB in with some 1930 fast BBs.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 24, 2019 14:55:17 GMT -6
Again, not a solution but a work around but I make sure all BBs built before 1920 have 22 knts and I put slower capital ships on TP or scrap them. This becomes less of a problem by 1930 when fast BBs are the norm. 28 knts does nicely.
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Post by generalvikus on Jun 24, 2019 20:00:13 GMT -6
I think it would be nice if the battle simulator (in fleet battles) grouped ships more by class and speed. Historically this is what the major navies did during WW1. I know that the battle simulator has a randomness component but in fleet battles where a lot of ships sortie in an organized fashion it doesn't make much sense to throw a 1910 21 knot BB in with some 1930 fast BBs. I agree, and I'd certainly like to see that, but I still think that the really necessary solution is to assign the player his forces at the start of a battle and then allow him to organise them as he sees fit. I don't have any problem with my old 21 knot BBs being sent out in the same fleet as 23, 24, 27 and 31 knot ships - and if the game's logic was good enough to group ships sensibly, then I wouldn't have so much of a problem with not being allowed to organise my forces, either. But even if the game could do a better job of creating divisions, I still think that an OB creator would be a major improvement. Does anybody know anything about my issue with scouting forces? |
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Post by seawolf on Jun 24, 2019 20:17:18 GMT -6
I think it would be nice if the battle simulator (in fleet battles) grouped ships more by class and speed. Historically this is what the major navies did during WW1. I know that the battle simulator has a randomness component but in fleet battles where a lot of ships sortie in an organized fashion it doesn't make much sense to throw a 1910 21 knot BB in with some 1930 fast BBs. I agree, and I'd certainly like to see that, but I still think that the really necessary solution is to assign the player his forces at the start of a battle and then allow him to organise them as he sees fit. I don't have any problem with my old 21 knot BBs being sent out in the same fleet as 23, 24, 27 and 31 knot ships - and if the game's logic was good enough to group ships sensibly, then I wouldn't have so much of a problem with not being allowed to organise my forces, either. But even if the game could do a better job of creating divisions, I still think that an OB creator would be a major improvement. Does anybody know anything about my issue with scouting forces? We already have the system through the fleet exercises |
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Post by kotori87 on Jun 26, 2019 19:36:07 GMT -6
I agree, and I'd certainly like to see that, but I still think that the really necessary solution is to assign the player his forces at the start of a battle and then allow him to organise them as he sees fit. I don't have any problem with my old 21 knot BBs being sent out in the same fleet as 23, 24, 27 and 31 knot ships - and if the game's logic was good enough to group ships sensibly, then I wouldn't have so much of a problem with not being allowed to organise my forces, either. But even if the game could do a better job of creating divisions, I still think that an OB creator would be a major improvement. Does anybody know anything about my issue with scouting forces? We already have the system through the fleet exercises If only we could use fleet exercise OOB editor during real battles... |
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Post by tortugapower on Jun 27, 2019 2:00:20 GMT -6
We already have the system through the fleet exercises If only we could use fleet exercise OOB editor during real battles... Been there, suggested that!
At the very least, having like classes grouped together would make the OOB less stupid. I've used the increase-to-max-speed to force divisions to split, but it's a cumbersome work-around and there's not always time for it.
I've had one battle with two classes of ships, one 26 kn and one 20 kn, it grouped 2 26s with 1 20, and 2 26s with 2 20s. Enforcing same-class divisions first, or at least same-speed ships, would be a merciful first-step to improving the OOB issues. |
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 27, 2019 6:34:32 GMT -6
If only we could use fleet exercise OOB editor during real battles... Been there, suggested that!
At the very least, having like classes grouped together would make the OOB less stupid. I've used the increase-to-max-speed to force divisions to split, but it's a cumbersome work-around and there's not always time for it.
I've had one battle with two classes of ships, one 26 kn and one 20 kn, it grouped 2 26s with 1 20, and 2 26s with 2 20s. Enforcing same-class divisions first, or at least same-speed ships, would be a merciful first-step to improving the OOB issues. I can somewhat deal with that by bumping the speed up manually until it detaches. What I can't deal with is having my mega-dreads - which I use to soak up enemy fire - at the back of non-flag divisions. This means that, even if I change the lead division, my 20kt 9" belt colonial dreadnoughts that just had the misfortune to be in the area are soaking up 16" shells in the first minutes and dying. |
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 27, 2019 11:51:25 GMT -6
Adding to the discussion, I believe the random factor of the game can still be preserved by limiting OOB editing for certain, if not most mission types.For the most part, we only need to be able to arrange divisions based on available ships, it can still be up to the games on deciding what ship they give us in most scenarios.(A bias towards ships of the same class being offered together in mission generation is nice, but not necessary. We have cases like Calabria where mordernized warspite is mixed with older R class to the detriment of the British)
This way we likely wont have any control over OOB of cruiser engagements since these can be chance encounter that occurs in routine patrol, and we may have only imperfect control for coastal bombardment missions(not able to pick from all ships in the area, but can choose how the squadrons are formed). Edit: -> This actually plays nicely if we ever implement things late game night bombardment on airbases, so we can intentionally not bring slow ships that can potentially become sitting ducks when morning comes.
However, when it comes to major fleet engagement, It can be assumed that the admiral should have almost complete control over it's planning to carefuly determine the OOB of the fleet that will be dispatched to engage in a decisive action.(the fact that such battle may not always happen can be represented in game as either failing to find the enemy in the tactical phase, or that the enemy declines battle on the strategic phase) Furthermore, even for decisive fleet engagements, certain ship can remain unavailable due to the various "in yard because of engine problem" events, but it is rather inconceivable that the admiral will not be able to determine OOB on a fleet level sortie.
Truly "surprise" event can be represented with the current ingame "surprise encounter" type of battles that the player cant refuse. In this case the player can be caught without even the ability to edit OOB organization to represent some very unusual circumstances like BBs being caught while transiting from one port to another or something of that nature.
Besides any technical challenges with coding, I understand that the team's main concern with detailed OOB edit is that it may give player unrealistic agency over certain scenarios and possibly bogs down the pace of the game(it will be hassle to build an OOB everytime for every destroyer action). However, I think the realism of the game can actually be improved by allowing player OOB editing ability that scales with the type of engagement at hand. The player can always opt to like the AI auto-decide the OOB as with the current system if the particular battle at hand does not warrant the effort to tweak OOBs.
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Post by mariner on Aug 9, 2020 10:19:20 GMT -6
When naming ships I add a "unit name" to the ship's name. For example: BB 26 Vanguard (3rd BB Division).
Typically I group Battleships and Battlecruisers in Divisions of four units, therefore there would be four Batteships with the tag "(3rd BB Division)" added to their name. Cruisers are grouped on Squadrons of 4 to 6units, and destroyers on Flotillas of 6 to 8 units. Well, it is surprising how many times the computer understands this and provides an order of battle where it respects my fleet organization to a very high degree.
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Post by arminpfano on Aug 9, 2020 13:58:02 GMT -6
A way to avoid the mentioned problem: I only build capitals with the same speed (22 for start, later 27). As soon as have the 27 knot ships I send the older slower ones to foreign areas or scrap them. The OOB generator works perfectly for me.
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Post by navalperson on Aug 11, 2020 17:52:26 GMT -6
Well I feel that maybe an implication to how you do fleet exercises in that you could build your own divisions.
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magnin
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by magnin on Aug 12, 2020 6:35:25 GMT -6
We already have the system through the fleet exercises If only we could use fleet exercise OOB editor during real battles... Yes, would be nice as an option, because this would eat time.
I would like to see the automatic OB, and have the *option" of modifying it before battle.
Cheers !
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