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Post by titanuranus on Jun 19, 2019 9:12:51 GMT -6
In RTW1, I used submarine raiders to destroy enemy merchant fleets. However, in RTW2, subs seem far less effective, especially in the late-game. I have begun using CA and CL raiders, but these don’t seem too terribly effective. Perhaps I am not using enough of them (I use ~10 CA’s and 20 CLs on very large fleets.) But I have also considered that I have not designed them properly. So, can anyone tell me the relative importance of the factors that go into making a good surface raider? How much does speed/range matter? What about armament? Do more aircraft help? Would specialized raider-carriers be useful? How much does positioning on the world map matter? Are mines useful? I know that AMCs are well-regarded, but the fact that they are scrapped after the war puts me off using them. I’ll post my designs when I get back to my laptop.
CA-R
CL-R
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Post by yemo on Jun 19, 2019 10:31:22 GMT -6
Those are far, far too heavy and expensive for raiders!
In my experience, a raider needs in that order, acceptable engines, acceptable range, acceptable speed, a plane, more speed, reliable engines, good range (up to long range, I do not find extreme range useful for the weight).
Nearly everything else is dead weight.
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Post by dorn on Jun 19, 2019 10:46:44 GMT -6
There are 2 type of raiders: 1. Raiders in zone where you have bases - medium range - engines for normal - high speed (31 knots at least from middle of 20s) - cheap as possible - scout plane 2. Raiders outside zones with bases Same except: - range medium/long - engines normal/reliable
Main point is to escape from any warship and to be cheap as much as possible. One ship destroy same amount of merchants no matter if it is 70M CA or 15 CL.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jun 19, 2019 11:05:58 GMT -6
The number one criteria for me for raiders is Cheap. It seems like the more I spend time effort (and Money) on a raider the more assuredly it gets summarily interned or scuttled.
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 19, 2019 11:17:55 GMT -6
Yes... my early game are 3000-3500 very small CL with good engines to be faster than everything else. First refit usually happen around steam turbines to keep the speed advantage. I also always give them reliable engines. Keep some weapons on them if not just for future refit space. They also come in handy when you get into a fist fight. I usually only arm them with 5" and some 3" guns. You also want to have mines on them later on, this is a perfect secondary job for your raiders.
The size of the raider will increase some as you will eventually need some float planes on them for scouting.
The same cruisers also work pretty well as scouts in a fleet too and are decent as a destroyer deterrent.
What I also do is convert my older BC to raiders and they work really well to combat enemy raiders as well as causing trouble with hunting them. Raiders will actually thwart enemy raiders as well as sink enemy transports. Instead of scrapping your old BC this is a really good job for them and so you don't need to build any armoured cruisers to do that job.
If you want raiders to operate far from your bases you might want to give them long range as well.
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Post by seawolf on Jun 19, 2019 12:13:50 GMT -6
Those would make much better combat cruisers than raiders.
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Post by director on Jun 19, 2019 12:30:53 GMT -6
If you are going to use warships as raiders, they need medium or long range (medium if you are using them in a seazone you own), one popgun and speed, speed, speed, speed and more speed. *To the tune of 'SPAM': Speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, Lovely speeeeeeeed, Love-el-y speeeeeeeeeed! *SPAM off. Even with AMC, I concentrate on low displacement, 4" or 5" guns, maximum mines, a torpedo battery or two, long range and 24 knots of speed. It is too bad we don't have the advantage that real AMCs had - that of disguise, forcing warships to close and inspect before opening fire. But, particularly in the early years, if a warship sights you and turns away (as they often do), 24 knots of speed can get you out of sight quickly. You don't need guns because you cannot win a gunfight with anything you encounter. Torpedo tubes only help if you can land one in your attacker before you sink. You cannot put in armor. So... speed to the max! So, as jorgencab says, there is a definite use for older BCs, all CAs and even CLs if you can spare them: use them to hunt enemy raiders, particularly raiding enemy warships.
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 19, 2019 12:58:41 GMT -6
For that matter, these ships makes excellent raider hunter and not raiders themselves.
ASFIK sea plane help raider in being more effective in hunting ships. Speed/range/engline reliability should help their raiding efficiency but I am not sure if the game models these.
Speed does help them escape Range/Reliable Engine does help them from being scuttled/interned due to engine failure/out of fuel
Firepower is almost irrelevant, unless you actually want to manually fight an intercept battle and come out on top. ->where damage may result you getting scuttled/interned anyway.
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Post by yemo on Jun 19, 2019 13:40:38 GMT -6
This imho fits a Northern Europe/Mediterranean home water raider pretty well.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 19, 2019 14:24:30 GMT -6
In my opinion, based on history, submarines and aircraft. They are the most effective ships to implement guerre de course.
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Post by seabass on Jun 19, 2019 17:33:22 GMT -6
In my opinion, based on history, submarines and aircraft. They are the most effective ships to implement guerre de course. How do you get airplanes to act as raiders?
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Post by aeson on Jun 19, 2019 19:45:15 GMT -6
How do you get airplanes to act as raiders? You can't, unless you count the seaplanes carried by typical raiders or the aircraft in the air groups of any CVLs and CVs assigned to raiding duties as raiders. Oldpop's talking about history rather than about what works in the game.
As to the question of what makes for a good raider in the game, my answer would be low investment. Old fleet cruisers at the tail end of their useful service lives that you don't really need for fleet service or to fulfill station tonnage but still have kicking around in the colonial squadrons or in the reserve fleet, those 2,100-3,000t "cruisers" you built last time the naval secretary asked you to build ten cruisers in the middle of a battleship program and weren't quite sure what to do with, that 500t AV you designed to see if you could and then built because you thought it was funny, the small AMCs you slapped a couple guns and a seaplane on and stuffed full of mines - all of these are good enough for raiding. What all of these have in common is that they're inexpensive to make and aren't of much value for most other tasks.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jun 19, 2019 20:14:17 GMT -6
For that matter, these ships makes excellent raider hunter and not raiders themselves. ASFIK sea plane help raider in being more effective in hunting ships. Speed/range/engline reliability should help their raiding efficiency but I am not sure if the game models these. The game does model these, as one who was in on the discussions of how air would help/hinder raiders.
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Post by trifler on Jun 19, 2019 23:16:35 GMT -6
It seems to be better to have raiding ships with long range and reliable engines. This vastly reduces the chances of the running out of fuel event between turns. Personally, I do think AMCs are worth it, at least in small numbers. AMCs can be set to long range far less expensively than any other ship type. I have used cruisers for raiding, and they work, but it takes more of them to achieve the same results. At the same time, an equivalent cruiser has to be a lot bigger.
I haven't tried using AV ships for raiding. I'll have to give that a whirl.
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Post by stevethecat on Jun 19, 2019 23:48:36 GMT -6
The Mechanic of having AMC's as war time only kills the interest in them for me imho, have been bit a couple of times by the politicians declaring peace while I was still working some AMC raiders up for war effectively throwing away a mass of money.
I go for long range CLs, armed with 5 inch guns, no torps and a couple of sea planes. The Key is making sure that they aren't in the active fleet when war is declared because you can guarantee that the game will pick them out of the hat to fight off a battlecruiser division.
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