Build Ships for Export

[Emma de Normandie]

Would we be able to build and sell ships to other AI nations or third party countries in the expansion?

It is quite exciting to imagine if you could make some extra money by building ships for others, especially since the AI wars will be a thing now; AI nations in war may want to ask me to build ships for them because my technologies are better or my dock size is bigger.

Or third parties like South American countries, China, India, and Turkey may give me ship orders.

[zederfflinger]

I like this idea, but I wonder what the trade off would be? Taking up dock space and risking countries stealing your tech? 

In addition, I am wondering if minor powers will play more of a role in the future. Maybe have them as possible allies or enemies? Extra nations would liven up the map! 

[indy]

You are already able to build ships in another nations shipyard. It would seem only fair to offer the AI the same privilege.

[ledzik]

I might be wrong but i remember instance when i had event that i can take battleships Japan was building in my yards. It was long ago it might be just my imagination but i clearly remember it.

[Kaiser Hans]

Jan 5, 2022 3:49:36 GMT -6 ledzik said:

I might be wrong but i remember instance when i had event that i can take battleships Japan was building in my yards. It was long ago it might be just my imagination but i clearly remember it.

In a event of a war you can size ships that was being built for other nations. This often happens as the British at the start of the game as you have the largest dockyards and best tech. So everyone sorts of build their stuff in the UK.

[w2c]

AI nations do build ships in other countries shipyards currently, including the player's. You just don't see any income or any effect at all unless you happen to go to war during it's construction.

[aeson]

Jan 5, 2022 18:30:45 GMT -6 w2c said:

You just don't see any income

Why would you expect to see any significant change in the naval budget directly resulting from a foreign power contracting a domestic shipyard to build one or more warships? Sure, major warships are expensive things, but their cost is small relative to the revenues that a major industrial state's government should be generating, their cost is spread out over several years, not all of the cost goes to the government - I'm reasonably confident that most major warships built for foreign powers were built in private shipyards, but even if they were built in state-owned shipyards the state would only be able to collect that part of the construction price which did not go towards materials and labor - and not all of what the government collects on the sale goes to the navy. Wikipedia says that the bid that Fore River provided Argentina for the Rivadavia-class battleships was around $11 million each... but in the five years or so over which the two ships were built the US defense budget ranged from just over $300 million to just under $350 million per year, so even if the US government collected 100% of the contract price of the two ships in tax revenues and other duties and put every last penny of it into the defense budget that's only an additional $22 million or so on just under $2 billion, or little over 1% of the total - and I find it very doubtful that the US government either collected 100% of the contract price in tax revenues and other duties on the sale of the two ships or put every penny that it did get out of that sale into the defense budget.

It may also be worth pointing out that there is some historical precedent for such projects being subsidized to some extent by the government of the state in which the contractor is based, so it's at least arguably the case that a foreign power ordering a warship from one of your domestic shipyards could actually result in a reduction of your budget.

[seawolf]

Jan 5, 2022 20:48:53 GMT -6 aeson said:

Jan 5, 2022 18:30:45 GMT -6 w2c said:

You just don't see any income

Why would you expect to see any significant change in the naval budget directly resulting from a foreign power contracting a domestic shipyard to build one or more warships? Sure, major warships are expensive things, but their cost is small relative to the revenues that a major industrial state's government should be generating, their cost is spread out over several years, not all of the cost goes to the government - I'm reasonably confident that most major warships built for foreign powers were built in private shipyards, but even if they were built in state-owned shipyards the state would only be able to collect that part of the construction price which did not go towards materials and labor - and not all of what the government collects on the sale goes to the navy. Wikipedia says that the bid that Fore River provided Argentina for the Rivadavia-class battleships was around $11 million each... but in the five years or so over which the two ships were built the US defense budget ranged from just over $300 million to just under $350 million per year, so even if the US government collected 100% of the contract price of the two ships in tax revenues and other duties and put every last penny of it into the defense budget that's only an additional $22 million or so on just under $2 billion, or little over 1% of the total - and I find it very doubtful that the US government either collected 100% of the contract price in tax revenues and other duties on the sale of the two ships or put every penny that it did get out of that sale into the defense budget.

It may also be worth pointing out that there is some historical precedent for such projects being subsidized to some extent by the government of the state in which the contractor is based, so it's at least arguably the case that a foreign power ordering a warship from one of your domestic shipyards could actually result in a reduction of your budget.

Since in the DLC we have a maximum shipyard size, are foreign orders considered in that?  IE, will Spain ordering a british dreadnought reduce or affect Britains total shipbuilding capacity?

[Fredrik W]

Jan 5, 2022 21:30:03 GMT -6 seawolf said:

Jan 5, 2022 20:48:53 GMT -6 aeson said:

Why would you expect to see any significant change in the naval budget directly resulting from a foreign power contracting a domestic shipyard to build one or more warships? Sure, major warships are expensive things, but their cost is small relative to the revenues that a major industrial state's government should be generating, their cost is spread out over several years, not all of the cost goes to the government - I'm reasonably confident that most major warships built for foreign powers were built in private shipyards, but even if they were built in state-owned shipyards the state would only be able to collect that part of the construction price which did not go towards materials and labor - and not all of what the government collects on the sale goes to the navy. Wikipedia says that the bid that Fore River provided Argentina for the Rivadavia-class battleships was around $11 million each... but in the five years or so over which the two ships were built the US defense budget ranged from just over $300 million to just under $350 million per year, so even if the US government collected 100% of the contract price of the two ships in tax revenues and other duties and put every last penny of it into the defense budget that's only an additional $22 million or so on just under $2 billion, or little over 1% of the total - and I find it very doubtful that the US government either collected 100% of the contract price in tax revenues and other duties on the sale of the two ships or put every penny that it did get out of that sale into the defense budget.

It may also be worth pointing out that there is some historical precedent for such projects being subsidized to some extent by the government of the state in which the contractor is based, so it's at least arguably the case that a foreign power ordering a warship from one of your domestic shipyards could actually result in a reduction of your budget.

Since in the DLC we have a maximum shipyard size, are foreign orders considered in that?  IE, will Spain ordering a british dreadnought reduce or affect Britains total shipbuilding capacity?

It is assumed that foreign orders are taken by private shipyards with excess capacity, so no, it will not affect the shipbuilding capacity of the building nation.

[vonfriedman]

A similar argument concerns the fate of warships built abroad and seized during a crisis.
In a recent game three Spanish BCs under construction in the UK were seized, but were not returned after the war ended (incidentally a war against Germany).
I don't know what happened to them. It is certain that Spain lost a lot of money and almost lost the war.

[achanos]

An interesting idea. Historically, the reason the UK shipyards took foreign orders was to maintain the yards and the labor force. The admiralty wasnt exactly enthusiastic about handing over technology to foreign powers, but the understood the necessity of keeping the yards running to prevent loss of skilled labor. The flip side to this was that the admiralty was able to take advantage of new tech being proven out on someone elses ships before the UK committed to a technological change.

The other potential option would be to offer ships under construction to foreign sale to clear the yard during budget crunches. This happened fairly often to most major shipyards as deals fell through at home for from foreign sales. For example, the only surviving armored cruisers, Georgios Averof of Greece, started off life as a cruiser for the Italian navy. Due to budget shortfalls, the Italian cancelled the order for the ship after she had already been laid down. That led to the Greek government purchasing the ship from the builder.

There were also cases where ships ordered by one nation wound up being purchased by another due to budget issues or just cold feet. The Rio de Janerio, ordered for the Brazilian navy, and built by the UK , eventually wound up being purchased and commissioned into Ottoman service.

I think it would be interesting to have some sort of mechanic to have nations source ships from the player, or have the opportunity to sell ships off. That could be an interesting opportunity to face your own ships in later wars. That was very common after the draw down from a large war, the US Fletcher class, for example, wound up being sold off to over a dozen different countries post WW2, including to former enemy powers.

Not sure how that might be handled mechanically, perhaps as random events? Or in the case of decommission, perhaps as an option to sell off instead of scrapping? Certainly you could make more money selling a vessel as opposed to its scrap value, at the risk of facing your former ship in a conflict. Interesting possibilities though!

[w2c]

Jan 5, 2022 20:48:53 GMT -6 aeson said:

Jan 5, 2022 18:30:45 GMT -6 w2c said:

You just don't see any income

Why would you expect to see any significant change in the naval budget directly resulting from a foreign power contracting a domestic shipyard to build one or more warships? Sure, major warships are expensive things, but their cost is small relative to the revenues that a major industrial state's government should be generating, their cost is spread out over several years, not all of the cost goes to the government - I'm reasonably confident that most major warships built for foreign powers were built in private shipyards, but even if they were built in state-owned shipyards the state would only be able to collect that part of the construction price which did not go towards materials and labor - and not all of what the government collects on the sale goes to the navy. Wikipedia says that the bid that Fore River provided Argentina for the Rivadavia-class battleships was around $11 million each... but in the five years or so over which the two ships were built the US defense budget ranged from just over $300 million to just under $350 million per year, so even if the US government collected 100% of the contract price of the two ships in tax revenues and other duties and put every last penny of it into the defense budget that's only an additional $22 million or so on just under $2 billion, or little over 1% of the total - and I find it very doubtful that the US government either collected 100% of the contract price in tax revenues and other duties on the sale of the two ships or put every penny that it did get out of that sale into the defense budget.

It may also be worth pointing out that there is some historical precedent for such projects being subsidized to some extent by the government of the state in which the contractor is based, so it's at least arguably the case that a foreign power ordering a warship from one of your domestic shipyards could actually result in a reduction of your budget.

Well to be clear, I wasn't arguing that you should see any income. I was just trying to be thorough with my answer in regards to the original point in the first place. The fact is that it is already in game, but has no real impact on it short of confiscated ships during wartime. That's all I was trying to say. We're in agreement here.

[wlbjork]

Jan 6, 2022 12:35:35 GMT -6 achanos said:

I think it would be interesting to have some sort of mechanic to have nations source ships from the player, or have the opportunity to sell ships off. That could be an interesting opportunity to face your own ships in later wars. That was very common after the draw down from a large war, the US Fletcher class, for example, wound up being sold off to over a dozen different countries post WW2, including to former enemy powers.

Not sure how that might be handled mechanically, perhaps as random events? Or in the case of decommission, perhaps as an option to sell off instead of scrapping? Certainly you could make more money selling a vessel as opposed to its scrap value, at the risk of facing your former ship in a conflict. Interesting possibilities though!

Those ships generally weren't bought by the top-ranked Naval powers though, and tend to be ships sold for scrapping - apart from the rapid demilitarisation after WW2.

[navalperson]

Potentially lend-lease could be incorporated into this as well like the US did with the 4 stacks and their could be a money gain for this. Would make AI wars very interesting with you supporting a nation when not actually in the fight.