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Post by kagami777 on May 28, 2022 5:50:46 GMT -6
YES! The measurements in inches is the only seriously irritating thing so far, as far as I know every nation but the US measured their guns in mm or cm. The measurement in inches is super irritating. I can understand why some people would want it but having the option to switch would be great. I would point out that during last more than 200 years, leading naval power used inches. I do not really understand why it is irritating as inches as measurement in naval warfare is similar as using nm, knots. I would mention I am not from country using inches and even knots. Britain may have used inches, the US uses inches, literally every other navy on the planet of note measures guns in millimeters. Its why the Yamato's guns are not 18" guns but 18.1" because they were in fact 46cm guns. France, Russia, and Germany all used cm/mm measurements for their guns. nm and knots are not the same thing, they are literally a separate form of measurement developed for maritime use, so I am guessing your from a landlocked country? A nm is actually longer than a mile.
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ap817
New Member
Posts: 22
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Post by ap817 on May 28, 2022 11:38:15 GMT -6
Bought RTW1 and RTW2 on release and will certainly buy the third game on release as well. Honestly can't wait until October. Especially the rework of existing features that had been a bit unpolished so far is what excites me the most. The improved superstructure drawer being #1 of all.
It certainly feels like going for an honest full sequel is the way to go considering the large scope of the game. Still, I must admit that it's a bit unpleasant that a part of the post-release support people were hoping for got rolled into the DLC, and then that got rolled into the sequel. Nothing to do but go full steam ahead now, but it sure would have been cool to have that deck park button do something for all these months. <iframe id="fskey-iframe" sandbox="allow-same-origin" class="fskey-autofill-dlg" style="display: none;"></iframe>
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Post by durhamdave on Jun 1, 2022 9:29:53 GMT -6
Fingers crossed that the release week isn't when I'm away on holiday.
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Post by stevethecat on Jun 1, 2022 11:09:31 GMT -6
Just a quick question about the steam version, will that still allow save file editing?
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Post by andrewm on Jun 2, 2022 12:56:47 GMT -6
I would point out that during last more than 200 years, leading naval power used inches. I do not really understand why it is irritating as inches as measurement in naval warfare is similar as using nm, knots. I would mention I am not from country using inches and even knots. Britain may have used inches, the US uses inches, literally every other navy on the planet of note measures guns in millimeters. Its why the Yamato's guns are not 18" guns but 18.1" because they were in fact 46cm guns. France, Russia, and Germany all used cm/mm measurements for their guns. nm and knots are not the same thing, they are literally a separate form of measurement developed for maritime use, so I am guessing your from a landlocked country? A nm is actually longer than a mile. Britain absolutely used inches to measure gun caliber and current destroyer guns are still quoted in inches. Metric was not used at all in the UK until the 1970's and in the general population a lot of people still use imperial units. In practice most countries used inches for naval armemant until they started making their own naval rifles as they tended to buy from Britain before that. France always used metric units for guns, Japan started to after WW1 before then their guns were British built or designed , Germany after they got serious about a navy in the 1890's . So for all of the big ship period the Number one and usually the number two naval power used inched so it would be silly to quote guns in any other measure Historically France and Russia were part of the two power standard , in that the Royal Navy could destroy both of their navies together and still have enough ships left to crush anyone else, then they were dwarfed by the German fleet which was itself nearly matched by the Americans and dwarfed by the British. After WW1 the British and Americans make up about two thirds of the worlds navies and 80% of the Japanese Battleships used guns measured in inches so measuring in Cm for naval guns is rare and unnusual
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Post by TheOtherPoster on Jun 3, 2022 11:32:48 GMT -6
I do not really understand why it is so irritating for some to be able to choose to use inches or mm for armour and guns when playing RTW. This request was really addressed to the (very silent) developers, in case they may think that it could help to sell the game to a wider market. Anyway, just to recap: mm were used and are still used in pretty much every country in this planet except the US and the UK. So for any potential player outside the US and UK it may be interesting to be able to switch to mm. That's the point I wanted to make. I do not know what that talk about the "leading naval powers" is all about, really. If you want to argue that we all should use inches because the UK and the US use inches, I'm afraid you got something else coming! Nobody really ever cared about that. Neither in the past or now. I'm afraid we will carry on using mm as always, even if NWS chooses to remain oblivious to the wide world out there.
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Post by kagami777 on Jun 3, 2022 12:18:33 GMT -6
Britain may have used inches, the US uses inches, literally every other navy on the planet of note measures guns in millimeters. Its why the Yamato's guns are not 18" guns but 18.1" because they were in fact 46cm guns. France, Russia, and Germany all used cm/mm measurements for their guns. nm and knots are not the same thing, they are literally a separate form of measurement developed for maritime use, so I am guessing your from a landlocked country? A nm is actually longer than a mile. Britain absolutely used inches to measure gun caliber and current destroyer guns are still quoted in inches. Metric was not used at all in the UK until the 1970's and in the general population a lot of people still use imperial units. In practice most countries used inches for naval armemant until they started making their own naval rifles as they tended to buy from Britain before that. France always used metric units for guns, Japan started to after WW1 before then their guns were British built or designed , Germany after they got serious about a navy in the 1890's . So for all of the big ship period the Number one and usually the number two naval power used inched so it would be silly to quote guns in any other measure Historically France and Russia were part of the two power standard , in that the Royal Navy could destroy both of their navies together and still have enough ships left to crush anyone else, then they were dwarfed by the German fleet which was itself nearly matched by the Americans and dwarfed by the British. After WW1 the British and Americans make up about two thirds of the worlds navies and 80% of the Japanese Battleships used guns measured in inches so measuring in Cm for naval guns is rare and unnusual You realize America didn't become number 2 then number 1 navy wise until during WW2 when the big gun era was effectively ended by the carrier, right? America had a powerful navy, yes. but I would argue that Germany was number 2 in WW1 and in between Japan took the lead over us because they were focusing on their ships rather well while the US fell behind. The US wrested second place from them at Midway then first from Britain later in the war. And every british person I have ever met said that its idiotic to use imperial measurements because of the practicality of metric. Also your contradicting yourself, Kongo was the last brittish built battlecruiser, 8 were built by britain (all predreads), 5 were captured russian ships (all predreads), the last 12 were Japanese made. Of the battlecruisers Kongo was made by britain and her sisterships were all made by japan, so 1/4. So IF russia was using brittish guns on their pacific fleet, then of japans total B/BB/BC every used, 14 used inches, while 15 used mm/cm as they were of purely japanese make. So the french always used metric, as soon as Japan was independent they switched to metric, Germany used metric once they started building their own powerful navy. Also that thing about 2/3 of the worlds navy being british and US doesn't sound as impressive when you realize at that point the british accounted for probably half the remaining naval vessels in the world, especially once after war scrapping is counted for. But what does this have to do with giving us the choice of what measurement we want to see in game based off of what we are comfortable with?
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Post by avimimus on Jun 3, 2022 13:03:21 GMT -6
To me this sounds like a good decision. I'm happy with more development time and I think the move to RTWIII as a full separate release makes sense given all the new features. I also honestly hope more people discover the game, and that the devs are encouraged to develop it further.
I'd love an 1870s-1880s expansion someday (RTWIV or RTWV). Of course, that would probably require a completely separate ship design window (e.g. types of cannon, types of armour - there were a lot of qualitative differences in that period. Also things like sail area which might provide a passive boost when moving downwind, but which would also interfere with turrets?). So I 'll understand if it doesn't happen.
Also having a doctrine tree where one could choose amongst a larger number of doctrinal changes once developed (instead of being forced to implement them immediately once discovered as part of a linear progression) would be useful someday! It'd also be nice to keep trying the occasional convoy attack or shore bombardment by selecting the doctrine to adjust scenario frequencies...
Will there any information on further scope adjustments? Or will we just have to wait until release?
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Post by avimimus on Jun 3, 2022 13:14:29 GMT -6
Question:
Has there been any information about whether it will be possible to detach destroyers for a night attack in RTW III? I know that a line astern formation with larger warships (cruisers or even battleships) was sometimes used for night attacks in the Pacific in WWII, but they could also attack independently, and at Jutland the destroyers were detached for a night attack.
With the ability to create custom flag divisions in RTWIII it might be possible to have dedicated cruisers whose sole role is to lead destroyer formations for night attacks as a work-around.
However, it'd be really nice to have the destroyers all detach if one hits the 'flotilla attack' button at dusk. Right now one can do that, but as soon as the sun sets they break off their attacks to try to return to the flag division!
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 3, 2022 13:24:08 GMT -6
Britain absolutely used inches to measure gun caliber and current destroyer guns are still quoted in inches. Metric was not used at all in the UK until the 1970's and in the general population a lot of people still use imperial units. In practice most countries used inches for naval armemant until they started making their own naval rifles as they tended to buy from Britain before that. France always used metric units for guns, Japan started to after WW1 before then their guns were British built or designed , Germany after they got serious about a navy in the 1890's . So for all of the big ship period the Number one and usually the number two naval power used inched so it would be silly to quote guns in any other measure Historically France and Russia were part of the two power standard , in that the Royal Navy could destroy both of their navies together and still have enough ships left to crush anyone else, then they were dwarfed by the German fleet which was itself nearly matched by the Americans and dwarfed by the British. After WW1 the British and Americans make up about two thirds of the worlds navies and 80% of the Japanese Battleships used guns measured in inches so measuring in Cm for naval guns is rare and unnusual And every british person I have ever met said that its idiotic to use imperial measurements because of the practicality of metric Speaking as an extremely bemused British person, I can't say I really understand either side of this argument. Most British people use metric and Imperial measurements interchangably and I suspect the full rules on how we use them would fill a decent sized encylopedia. It is a fact that the dominant naval power for the last 400 years has used Imperial. Also, the devs are based in the States, where Imperial is the norm.
On the other hand, I can't see any reason why people shouldn't use metric if they want. I wouldn't demand the devs implement it as they have objectively better things to do, but a mod should be possible. If anyone wants to have to read 152mm and 40.6cm, that's fine. Contrary to popular belief, metric is not necessarily more practical - it is simply easier to reconcile with arthmetic in base 10. If you're brought up with either, they're both intuitive. Personal preference isn't really worth this argument.
And yes, I know it's all our fault.
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Post by gurudennis on Jun 3, 2022 13:44:19 GMT -6
The fact that naval gun calibers nicely and conveniently increment in inches as a matter of convention (yes, I understand these are approximate and in reality fractional) is in itself a powerful argument for using the Imperial system specifically for this purpose. Talking about upgrading from 15" to 16" is intuitive enough -- 381mm to 406.4mm not so much. The metric system is IMHO superior for most purposes, but there are valid exceptions.
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Post by TheOtherPoster on Jun 3, 2022 17:25:40 GMT -6
It is not about round numbers, really. The French, the inventors of the international metric system, used calibres like 138, 164, 194, 274mm and the like and they were never bothered about it. It seemed perfectly intuitive to them (and of course there are some odd calibres in inches too, like 4.7, 5.25, 9.2 and others)
It is about understanding the measurement itself. We all use already either mm or inches in our daily lives because that is the way we understand measurements. Everybody in Europe understands what 381mm is. But they do not have a clue what 15 inches means. Inches are for them really counter-intuitive. Is there 11 inches per oz? In France, Germany, Italy, Russia, Japan, Spain, Sweden... the metric system was at the time and it is now the official and traditional way to refer to calibres and armour. Hence in all those countries Iowa always had 9 x 406mm guns or Invincible a 152mm belt. And this is how many potential players would have acquired any knowledge regarding these and any other ship.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Jun 3, 2022 19:46:16 GMT -6
It is not about round numbers, really. The French, the inventors of the international metric system, used calibres like 138, 164, 194, 274mm and the like and they were never bothered about it. It seemed perfectly intuitive to them (and of course there are some odd calibres in inches too, like 4.7, 5.25, 9.2 and others) It is about understanding the measurement itself. We all use already either mm or inches in our daily lives because that is the way we understand measurements. Everybody in Europe understands what 381mm is. But they do not have a clue what 15 inches means. Inches are for them really counter-intuitive. Is there 11 inches per oz? In France, Germany, Italy, Russia, Japan, Spain, Sweden... the metric system was at the time and it is now the official and traditional way to refer to calibres and armour. Hence in all those countries Iowa always had 9 x 406mm guns or Invincible a 152mm belt. And this is how many potential players would have acquired any knowledge regarding these and any other ship. But by the same token, people in the US and Britain have no clue how to visualise 381mm. Intellectually, I've worked with metric since I could count, but if someone says they're 183cm tall, it means precisely nothing to me until I turn it into 6 feet. Similarly, we struggle with kilometres per hour - not because we don't know how far a metre is and how many go into a kilometre, but because no one uses kph in Britain. It's extremely hard to break habits like this because we've all been using our respective systems since birth. There's even style or technical differences in each measurement system. Some metric countries go in for decilitres, some go for centilitres, and others just use fractional litres. A US pint is 16floz while a British pint is 20. Or the fact that Brits measure people's weights in stones (14lbs) rather than the more American pounds.
One section no one's piped up about is displacement. The game uses generic tons but what does that mean? (Metric 1000kg = 2200lbs, Imperial (long) 2240lbs = 1016kg, US (short) 2000lbs = 907kg.) We think they're close, but over tens of thousands of tons they're not. It doesn't break the game though, because we use relative measures. A 10 thousand-ton(ne) ship is relatively bigger and better than an 8 thousand-ton ship. Similarly, a 18" gun is bigger and better than a 12". We can visualise it and say one has an extra half a foot in diameter but that's not really required for the actual game.
I stand by my earlier post. Can't see the problem with it being an option to switch, definitely would be a good idea for a mod, but not a priority for devs trying to publish a brand spanking new game in October.
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Post by kagami777 on Jun 4, 2022 1:25:21 GMT -6
It is not about round numbers, really. The French, the inventors of the international metric system, used calibres like 138, 164, 194, 274mm and the like and they were never bothered about it. It seemed perfectly intuitive to them (and of course there are some odd calibres in inches too, like 4.7, 5.25, 9.2 and others) It is about understanding the measurement itself. We all use already either mm or inches in our daily lives because that is the way we understand measurements. Everybody in Europe understands what 381mm is. But they do not have a clue what 15 inches means. Inches are for them really counter-intuitive. Is there 11 inches per oz? In France, Germany, Italy, Russia, Japan, Spain, Sweden... the metric system was at the time and it is now the official and traditional way to refer to calibres and armour. Hence in all those countries Iowa always had 9 x 406mm guns or Invincible a 152mm belt. And this is how many potential players would have acquired any knowledge regarding these and any other ship. But by the same token, people in the US and Britain have no clue how to visualise 381mm. Intellectually, I've worked with metric since I could count, but if someone says they're 183cm tall, it means precisely nothing to me until I turn it into 6 feet. Similarly, we struggle with kilometres per hour - not because we don't know how far a metre is and how many go into a kilometre, but because no one uses kph in Britain. It's extremely hard to break habits like this because we've all been using our respective systems since birth. There's even style or technical differences in each measurement system. Some metric countries go in for decilitres, some go for centilitres, and others just use fractional litres. A US pint is 16floz while a British pint is 20. Or the fact that Brits measure people's weights in stones (14lbs) rather than the more American pounds.
One section no one's piped up about is displacement. The game uses generic tons but what does that mean? (Metric 1000kg = 2200lbs, Imperial (long) 2240lbs = 1016kg, US (short) 2000lbs = 907kg.) We think they're close, but over tens of thousands of tons they're not. It doesn't break the game though, because we use relative measures. A 10 thousand-ton(ne) ship is relatively bigger and better than an 8 thousand-ton ship. Similarly, a 18" gun is bigger and better than a 12". We can visualise it and say one has an extra half a foot in diameter but that's not really required for the actual game.
I stand by my earlier post. Can't see the problem with it being an option to switch, definitely would be a good idea for a mod, but not a priority for devs trying to publish a brand spanking new game in October.
pint is imperial, not metric. Fractional liters all have names if you care to figure them out but using decimals or scientific notation is easier. I was raised in the US but think in metric, because I have taught myself to, with the only exception being that I factor inches, feet, and yards about as well as cm and meters given they are somewhat manageable to convert if you aren't trying to be exact. I have switched all of my devices to metric and Celsius, and only figure in miles when I am driving because the length of a mile is really hard to know intuitively. As for displacement I wasn't concerned about that any more than I was about the unspecified currency used. We already know it isn't a 1/1 match to most tons because its hard to make matches to real world ships. I just think that it would be a qol improvement for people who aren't American and some British people.
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Post by TheOtherPoster on Jun 4, 2022 1:45:20 GMT -6
We are going in circles here. I think we have spent more time discussing this that it would take to the developers to add this option to the game.
It seems to me something pretty straight forward to implement but I may be wrong.
I still believe it could help sales and that it makes sense both from the point of view of easiness for the user and also that it is historically accurate as it is the way armour and calibre have always been measured in those countries.
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