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Post by xteam25boyz on May 19, 2023 20:18:58 GMT -6
RTW3 is a really great work, however, there are some errors of Chinese ship names in the game, which make me and my community localization group surrering...... First, there are some typo and fact problem. Let's talk about BB list, "Chi Kuang" shown up twice, and "Ping Yuen"/"Lung Wei" are different name for the same ship. Second, the "standard" of selecting names are not clear. For example, "Ting Yuen"/"Chen Yuen" are capital ships at that time, but "Ping Yuen"/"Lung Wei" is a 2500 ton level cruiser, how could it stay in BB list? I also noticed some names for Kang Ding Class (La Fayette Class) and Cheng Kung Class (Oliver Hazard Perry Class) frigates are in the BB list (The name for Kang Ding Class is imcomplete, "Kun Ming" and "Chen De" are missing), that make sense because they are "capital ship" in ROC navy, but in same rule, "Kee Lung", "Su Ao", "Tso Ying" and "Ma Kong" (btw they all show up twice in DD list) should be in BB list instead of DD, because these names are Kee Lung Class (Kidd Class) Destroyer, largest warship in ROC navy now. Third, in early 1900s, there are 2 kinds of romanization in China: Wade-Giles (WG) and Chinese Postal Romanization (CPR). Normally, CPR is used for spell names of major cities and provinces (CPS is closer to Chinese). Using WG to spell name of cities and provinces will cause misunderstanding (especially for Chinese speaker or player with some Asian history background). Here are some information might be useful for developers (and for people who are interested in different spelling systems): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_postal_romanizationwww.nytimes.com/1979/02/04/archives/times-due-to-revise-its-chinese-spelling-adoption-of-new-system.htmlHave a good weekend and enjoy the game! |
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Post by seawolf on May 20, 2023 15:52:59 GMT -6
Hey, I much appreciate the feedback. Some of the one's you found are definitely mistakes, I'll try and explain the reasoning for the others, but I speak only very basic mandarin so feel free to correct me.
Ping Yuen and Lung Wei made the BB list because they had 8" belts and thus, as far as I can tell, were considered coastal ironclads rather than cruisers. There's some similar 3000 ton ironclads in the BB list for other nations.
(ROCS) Cheng Kung class were put in the BB list because they were named after historical figures, rather than cities, which is why Kee Lung class(cities) went into the DD list. Since the historical split between ROCS and PLAN led to different naming schemes for classes, I tried to make an even naming scheme.
So currently each class starts with it's historical(pre-split) names, and then goes into
Capital Ships:Provinces, surface combatant ROCN names that are not cities
Cruisers:Large Cities(provincial capitals)
Destroyers:Smaller cities
Which is roughly(as far as I know) close to the naming scheme of the PLAN, and captures most ROCN names for their proper classes. I chose provinces for capital ships due to the PLAN's carrier naming.
Good catch on the Kang Ding class, they should definitely not have been on the BB list, I think cruisers is the right spot for them.
I'd definitely support switching place names to postal romanization if the devs agree-just need to find the time to switch them back. I also have the original lists in Pinyin that I'll provide as a mod, I personally prefer those.
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Post by xenontennessee on May 21, 2023 1:10:20 GMT -6
Hey, I much appreciate the feedback. Some of the one's you found are definitely mistakes, I'll try and explain the reasoning for the others, but I speak only very basic mandarin so feel free to correct me. Ping Yuen and Lung Wei made the BB list because they had 8" belts and thus, as far as I can tell, were considered coastal ironclads rather than cruisers. There's some similar 3000 ton ironclads in the BB list for other nations. (ROCS) Cheng Kung class were put in the BB list because they were named after historical figures, rather than cities, which is why Kee Lung class(cities) went into the DD list. Since the historical split between ROCS and PLAN led to different naming schemes for classes, I tried to make an even naming scheme. So currently each class starts with it's historical(pre-split) names, and then goes into Capital Ships:Provinces, surface combatant ROCN names that are not cities Cruisers:Large Cities(provincial capitals) Destroyers:Smaller cities Which is roughly(as far as I know) close to the naming scheme of the PLAN, and captures most ROCN names for their proper classes. I chose provinces for capital ships due to the PLAN's carrier naming. Good catch on the Kang Ding class, they should definitely not have been on the BB list, I think cruisers is the right spot for them. I'd definitely support switching place names to postal romanization if the devs agree-just need to find the time to switch them back. I also have the original lists in Pinyin that I'll provide as a mod, I personally prefer those. Hello. It is good news that there exists an original list in Pinyin and would be released as a mod.
To be fair, a problem in Wade-Giles is that a lot of Chinese speakers, including native-born Chinese people, cannot grasp the meanings today. A Pinyin-version will reduce misunderstanding in localization and communication, and at least provides more accurate information if some searches traced to the source are required...
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Post by xteam25boyz on May 22, 2023 10:58:33 GMT -6
Hey, I much appreciate the feedback. Some of the one's you found are definitely mistakes, I'll try and explain the reasoning for the others, but I speak only very basic mandarin so feel free to correct me. Ping Yuen and Lung Wei made the BB list because they had 8" belts and thus, as far as I can tell, were considered coastal ironclads rather than cruisers. There's some similar 3000 ton ironclads in the BB list for other nations. (ROCS) Cheng Kung class were put in the BB list because they were named after historical figures, rather than cities, which is why Kee Lung class(cities) went into the DD list. Since the historical split between ROCS and PLAN led to different naming schemes for classes, I tried to make an even naming scheme. So currently each class starts with it's historical(pre-split) names, and then goes into Capital Ships:Provinces, surface combatant ROCN names that are not cities Cruisers:Large Cities(provincial capitals) Destroyers:Smaller cities Which is roughly(as far as I know) close to the naming scheme of the PLAN, and captures most ROCN names for their proper classes. I chose provinces for capital ships due to the PLAN's carrier naming. Good catch on the Kang Ding class, they should definitely not have been on the BB list, I think cruisers is the right spot for them. I'd definitely support switching place names to postal romanization if the devs agree-just need to find the time to switch them back. I also have the original lists in Pinyin that I'll provide as a mod, I personally prefer those. Hello. It is good news that there exists an original list in Pinyin and would be released as a mod.
To be fair, a problem in Wade-Giles is that a lot of Chinese speakers, including native-born Chinese people, cannot grasp the meanings today. A Pinyin-version will reduce misunderstanding in localization and communication, and at least provides more accurate information if some searches traced to the source are required...
Wade-Giles looks like some non-Chinese speakers try to speak Chinese in their own language. For example, in Chinese we don't have "th" but have "s", so many Chinese people use "s" to replace "th" when they speak English, of course that will make native speakers feel confused (Like "I think" and "I sink"). Wade-Giles is doing same thing on opposite way. |
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Post by kongxinga on Sept 16, 2023 23:33:42 GMT -6
Looking at the ship name list, I think there is potential for some improvement. For example, CLs have a whole series names after mountains (*Foo* Shan) and I am actually unsure if there ever existed such a naming convention. Now, I know I did it myself when I modded ROC as China for Rule the Waves 2, IIRC carriers were provinces or KMT Martyrs, BBs were cities, some variation of cruisers were mountains (so I did this myself, and apologize for it). Looking back now, there was so much that can be done better. Back in the RTW2 mod, I scoured pre dreadnought era ships + period ships for actual historical names, then added filler from made up conventions to pad the list. A commentator sent me a link to this defunct blog post that had both PRC and ROC navy naming conventions from the period blog.sina.cn/dpool/blog/s/blog_873ccfb60100ymkr.html . It is defunct and wayback machine is not cooperating, but I recall I printed to PDF somewhere on my computer, so should be able to get it. IMHO here are how I would fill the lists. In order of descending verisimilitude. 1. Actual Ships from the period (so Ning Hai, Ping Hai here) 2. Actual ships from out of the period (Pre Dreadnoughts, Late Cold War/ Modern) (So Qing dynasty had a a list of ships, and we can reach earlier) 3. Actual Ship names from the period's Naval Naming convention. If I recall correctly Constellations were to be used for Carriers, and this is constellations based on Chinese astronomy iirc. I bought a whole guidebook on ancient astronomy terms to prep for that. 4. Actual Naming conventions from modern times, both ROC and PRC. For example, the new ROCN LPD (so I guess carriers) DOES use the *Foo*Shan mountain naming convention (Lead ship is Yushan or Jade Mountain). PRC's carriers are actual carriers, and are obviously named differently. Note: Do all these in your favorite pingyin variant, then take a converter and Wade Giles it. The old mod embarrassingly mixed WadeGiles with Pinying. Finally, I know I did it myself in my mod, but if anyone (Chinese) actually called Chiang Kai Shek "Generalissimo", it would be extremely awkward and likely to get you shot. One of the first things I would change in RTW3 is change that to Director-General instead (Wei Yuan Zhang 委員長). I know I did do it myself so should not complain. I did so because I actually like how the word Generalissimo sounds, but it breaks immersion since no Naval Minister is going to refer to him like that. I'm pretty sad in RTW China is unable to develop planes at all. I recall for the mod I actually looked at primary sources to find a few aviation companies that existed in the time period. To be fair, for historical accuracy, no planes make sense (barring prototypes like the gull winged Chu XP1), but this game is kinda alternate history anyways. Famously, the first and founding aeronautical engineer at Boeing was Chinese, so who says if in an alternate timeline he would not be designing planes in China? |
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Post by droctulf on Sept 20, 2023 20:09:08 GMT -6
One addition: many names are strangely broke up mid-character: example: Chiang Hsi is a province name, but the namelist break it up into Chi Hang Hsi.
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