Roumba
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Roumba on May 7, 2019 17:37:06 GMT -6
A 21kt high armor, low freeboard BB is tempting, but I only went a little crazy with my BBs. I put most of my design-lunacy into the lighter forces.
Coming up with a single CL and DD class was hard. I usually have a mix of different focuses so any group of ships has at least one that has a good set of tools for the job. Making the CLs -NOT- 8000t monsters was even harder.
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Post by noshurviverse on May 7, 2019 18:17:00 GMT -6
I would have gone with my typical cruiser configuration, a protected cruiser with quad 7-8" guns, but the 6" restriction was in place. I did go with a rather major split between heavily armored BBs and heavily armed BCs, we'll have to see how it works out.
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Post by christian on May 8, 2019 0:42:54 GMT -6
now personally i have no idea why people would ever put alot of their armor on their ships i barely put on enough armor to withstand 6 inch guns at 15km range which allowed me to put on alot more firepower
the simple fact that i have obersved in standard rule the waves (non modded) is that by 1936 (the year we are playing) the armor piercing capabilities of 16 +1 and 17 +1 (or 18+1 if we had em) are simply too strong
for example the 17 inch +1 can penetrate a whopping 7.4" of deck armor at 25000 meters and has a max range of 39000 meters the max deck armor allowed in game is 8" this means 17" +1 guns will go straight through the toughest deck armor in the intire game at beyond 30000 meters
these guns also have longer range than any other guns 16"+1 will only do 6.4 at 25000 of deck armor but 6.5" of deck armor weights ALOT and you sacrifice firepower
in order to protect your ship against 17" guns on the belt you would need over 13.9 inches of belt armor at 25000 meters and over 7.4" of deck armor to protect yourself and get a VERY small immunity zone at 25000 meters
and you need 16.5 inches of belt at 20000 meters and over 8 inches of deck at 30000 meters either way most ships at 35000 tons just dont have this if they also want a comparable main battery or if its a battlecruiser and also has to have speed which costs weight and so on
and the same basically goes for light cruisers at 15km range (max 6 inch range) you need 2.1+ belt armor and 1.5+ deck armor
aka heavy and impractical
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Post by griffin01 on May 8, 2019 1:07:32 GMT -6
Skimping on armour too much is asking for flash fires, magazine detonations, cutting electric power and other such pleasants things. Remember that penetration values are listed assuming 90 degree angle hits, and there is some random factor, too, so armour is not nearly as useless as you would think.
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Post by akosjaccik on May 8, 2019 2:40:08 GMT -6
Skimping on armour too much is asking for flash fires, magazine detonations, cutting electric power and other such pleasants things. Remember that penetration values are listed assuming 90 degree angle hits, and there is some random factor, too, so armour is not nearly as useless as you would think. Random factor, yes, but I am uncertain about the 90 degrees. You can certainly angle the ship to get a modifier, but there is still a belt+deck penetration value largely taking care of the angle, as you are probably firing broadsides (discounting all-forward), plus the possibility to utilize the immunity is also shaky sometimes. You certainly have good points, like armoring the turret (though I'd say even that matters less later), but I myself am noz buying into the "cult of armor" either and have some problems with armoring against battleship-calibers. But of course, diversity in viable paths and meeting people who are advocating for those is why this game is beautiful.
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Post by christian on May 8, 2019 3:06:08 GMT -6
Skimping on armour too much is asking for flash fires, magazine detonations, cutting electric power and other such pleasants things. Remember that penetration values are listed assuming 90 degree angle hits, and there is some random factor, too, so armour is not nearly as useless as you would think. Random factor, yes, but I am uncertain about the 90 degrees. You can certainly angle the ship to get a modifier, but there is still a belt+deck penetration value largely taking care of the angle, as you are probably firing broadsides (discounting all-forward), plus the possibility to utilize the immunity is also shaky sometimes. You certainly have good points, like armoring the turret (though I'd say even that matters less later), but I myself am noz buying into the "cult of armor" either and have some problems with armoring against battleship-calibers. But of course, diversity in viable paths and meeting people who are advocating for those is why this game is beautiful. yep what i usually do is protect myself against max range 6 or 8 inch guns the rest i just dont bother with because it would get too heavy this also allows me to be faster have more secondaries better torpedo protection higher range more guns and all that which i think are VERY viable tradeoffs
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Post by akosjaccik on May 8, 2019 4:07:33 GMT -6
yep what i usually do is protect myself against max range 6 or 8 inch guns the rest i just dont bother with because it would get too heavy this also allows me to be faster have more secondaries better torpedo protection higher range more guns and all that which i think are VERY viable tradeoffs I can see where you are coming from, yes. I am of course, absolutely not saying that "armor is useless", but I can certainly see opinions having good arguments when stating that achieving the level of protection against high-caliber shellfire in the late years reliably and cost-efficiently is too much of a steep hill. There are people who would say that f.e. installing a 16" belt instead of 12" plates in '45 worth the cost, personally I find it's cost far more high than the value it would bring overall.
~1900, of course, is an entirely different beast.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on May 8, 2019 4:18:08 GMT -6
yep what i usually do is protect myself against max range 6 or 8 inch guns the rest i just dont bother with because it would get too heavy this also allows me to be faster have more secondaries better torpedo protection higher range more guns and all that which i think are VERY viable tradeoffs I can see where you are coming from, yes. I am of course, absolutely not saying that "armor is useless", but I can certainly see opinions having good arguments when stating that achieving the level of protection against high-caliber shellfire in the late years reliably and cost-efficiently is too much of a steep hill. There are people who would say that f.e. installing a 16" belt instead of 12" plates in '45 worth the cost, personally I find it's cost far more high than the value it would bring overall.
~1900, of course, is an entirely different beast.
Open up a design in notepad or something and you'll notice the armour values are higher than you designed them. This is due to an effectiveness modifier (in the original game). It is possible to put enough armour to get within 10,000 yds without taking belt penetration and to minimise the risk of deck penetration, going on these values. Provided I'm right, of course!
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Post by akosjaccik on May 8, 2019 4:36:59 GMT -6
Open up a design in notepad or something and you'll notice the armour values are higher than you designed them.(...) Currently I have no means to do so, though me being very wrong is certainly a possibility regardless of me having the data or not. Still, I thought the whole point of RtW1's system was that by using "effective thickness" (as such, techs reducing the weight needed to achieve X amount) and "effective armor penetration" these values get to be comparable. If that's the case, the data file might simply use a different numerical value ("measurement unit") than the inches presented to the player.
Edit: On a sidenote, I am a bit afraid, now that we are talking about this, that RtW2's new method will be less informative from a design perspective. Do I remember right, it will steer away from this "equivalent armor thickness" display method used in RtW1? Actually, I could just quickly check the devjoural to see if I can find it...
Edit again: "Armour is now increased in effectiveness with technology progress instead of becoming lighter." - Hm, kind of, yes. Huh.
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Post by christian on May 8, 2019 5:01:20 GMT -6
What i find is usually more Do I want the extra 10 Guns and have a total of 20 17 inch Guns and 25 8 inch secondaries on My 35k ton bb or do I want 8 or 10 17 inch Guns with 10 secondaries But 6 inch deck 8 inch turret roof and 14 inch turret and belt armor My answer is always more firepower it's just too much to trade 50% of My firepower for a chance to resist bb Guns Also no armor dosent get more effective that's rule the waves 2 where armor gets more effective In rule the waves 1 it gets lighter There are 14 armor Levels in total each giving 1% armor Weight reduction That's 14% weight saving at most In 1899 a 17 inch Gun has 9.3 inches of penetration in 1922 it has 31 inches of pen Penetration triples while armor dosent evolve at all docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NMQbxQGQSy-cHUepCuhdkLgmCabtBwZfOUgX1fu1WEU/htmlview#Which Means 14 inches of armor is just 14 inches of armor and a 17 in her will pen that at almost any distance Armor is useless
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Post by rob06waves2018 on May 8, 2019 5:21:40 GMT -6
What i find is usually more Do I want the extra 10 Guns and have a total of 20 17 inch Guns and 25 8 inch secondaries on My 35k ton bb or do I want 8 or 10 17 inch Guns with 10 secondaries But 6 inch deck 8 inch turret roof and 14 inch turret and belt armor My answer is always more firepower it's just too much to trade 50% of My firepower for a chance to resist bb Guns Also no armor dosent get more effective that's rule the waves 2 where armor gets more effective In rule the waves 1 it gets lighter There are 14 armor Levels in total each giving 1% armor Weight reduction That's 14% weight saving at most In 1899 a 17 inch Gun has 9.3 inches of penetration in 1922 it has 31 inches of pen Penetration triples while armor dosent evolve at all docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NMQbxQGQSy-cHUepCuhdkLgmCabtBwZfOUgX1fu1WEU/htmlview#Which Means 14 inches of armor is just 14 inches of armor and a 17 in her will pen that at almost any distance Armor is useless I could be wrong. I'll upload a couple of screenshots when I get home though using Tortuga's game 2.
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Post by christian on May 8, 2019 5:25:59 GMT -6
What i find is usually more Do I want the extra 10 Guns and have a total of 20 17 inch Guns and 25 8 inch secondaries on My 35k ton bb or do I want 8 or 10 17 inch Guns with 10 secondaries But 6 inch deck 8 inch turret roof and 14 inch turret and belt armor My answer is always more firepower it's just too much to trade 50% of My firepower for a chance to resist bb Guns Also no armor dosent get more effective that's rule the waves 2 where armor gets more effective In rule the waves 1 it gets lighter There are 14 armor Levels in total each giving 1% armor Weight reduction That's 14% weight saving at most In 1899 a 17 inch Gun has 9.3 inches of penetration in 1922 it has 31 inches of pen Penetration triples while armor dosent evolve at all docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NMQbxQGQSy-cHUepCuhdkLgmCabtBwZfOUgX1fu1WEU/htmlview#Which Means 14 inches of armor is just 14 inches of armor and a 17 in her will pen that at almost any distance Armor is useless I could be wrong. I'll upload a couple of screenshots when I get home though using Tortuga's game 2. Please do I Hope rtw 2 is gonna make armor more usable in game it's currently slightly too heavy and dosent protect enough for it's Weight
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Post by griffin01 on May 8, 2019 5:36:27 GMT -6
Skimping on armour too much is asking for flash fires, magazine detonations, cutting electric power and other such pleasants things. Remember that penetration values are listed assuming 90 degree angle hits, and there is some random factor, too, so armour is not nearly as useless as you would think. Random factor, yes, but I am uncertain about the 90 degrees. You can certainly angle the ship to get a modifier, but there is still a belt+deck penetration value largely taking care of the angle, as you are probably firing broadsides (discounting all-forward), plus the possibility to utilize the immunity is also shaky sometimes. You certainly have good points, like armoring the turret (though I'd say even that matters less later), but I myself am noz buying into the "cult of armor" either and have some problems with armoring against battleship-calibers. But of course, diversity in viable paths and meeting people who are advocating for those is why this game is beautiful. Personally, I don't believe in immunity, either. What I'm counting on is certain degree of resistance. I'm not even talking about angling your ships intentionally. By the virtue of their trajectory, shells will never hit the belt at 90 degree angle, so the effective armour thickness may well be enough to prevent penetration. However, my main point is that you should always armour your ship to protect at least the citadel. Not being able to protect the ship against ordinary hits is fine.
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Post by elouda on May 8, 2019 5:42:25 GMT -6
I can see where you are coming from, yes. I am of course, absolutely not saying that "armor is useless", but I can certainly see opinions having good arguments when stating that achieving the level of protection against high-caliber shellfire in the late years reliably and cost-efficiently is too much of a steep hill. There are people who would say that f.e. installing a 16" belt instead of 12" plates in '45 worth the cost, personally I find it's cost far more high than the value it would bring overall.
~1900, of course, is an entirely different beast.
Open up a design in notepad or something and you'll notice the armour values are higher than you designed them. This is due to an effectiveness modifier (in the original game). It is possible to put enough armour to get within 10,000 yds without taking belt penetration and to minimise the risk of deck penetration, going on these values. Provided I'm right, of course! The numbers in the raw design file are half an inch per integer, so 10 = 5in, 13 = 6.5in, etc.
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Post by christian on May 8, 2019 5:47:24 GMT -6
Random factor, yes, but I am uncertain about the 90 degrees. You can certainly angle the ship to get a modifier, but there is still a belt+deck penetration value largely taking care of the angle, as you are probably firing broadsides (discounting all-forward), plus the possibility to utilize the immunity is also shaky sometimes. You certainly have good points, like armoring the turret (though I'd say even that matters less later), but I myself am noz buying into the "cult of armor" either and have some problems with armoring against battleship-calibers. But of course, diversity in viable paths and meeting people who are advocating for those is why this game is beautiful. Personally, I don't believe in immunity, either. What I'm counting on is certain degree of resistance. I'm not even talking about angling your ships intentionally. By the virtue of their trajectory, shells will never hit the belt at 90 degree angle, so the effective armour thickness may well be enough to prevent penetration. However, my main point is that you should always armour your ship to protect at least the citadel. Not being able to protect the ship against ordinary hits is fine.Thing is though it will never be enough and it's VERY heavy Also sure shells might not hit at a 90 degree angle but lucikly the in game Gun performance chart takes care of that and even with shell angle include because of range and whatnot it will still penetrate alot of armor And Unlike with belt armor (under 25000m) most hits over 25000m are deck hits angling your ship no longer matters Most engagements are Also at long range 30000m+ and it's unsual they go down under 25000m Also i dont even think there is a system in game that gives you more armor based on angle of shell impact In the first place there is no ballistics so to speak in game each time the ship fires it has x% chance to hit at it's current target Richochet chance and increased armor i am 90% sure is not a Thing if it is please provide proof or something along those lines cause that might make some kinds of ships extremely effective Sure it could estimate angle by saying where ship fired from and at what angle the enemy armor was facing from the ship that hit the angled ship and then do it from there Although due to the lack of bow tankning Meta this game has i doubt this is the case (way to make undefeatable battleships is just to have extreme extended belt armor and All other armor which would make All bow on hits bounce or Richochet or non penetrate and just have very few Guns making it a floating tank
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