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Post by rob06waves2018 on May 8, 2019 5:59:19 GMT -6
Open up a design in notepad or something and you'll notice the armour values are higher than you designed them. This is due to an effectiveness modifier (in the original game). It is possible to put enough armour to get within 10,000 yds without taking belt penetration and to minimise the risk of deck penetration, going on these values. Provided I'm right, of course! The numbers in the raw design file are half an inch per integer, so 10 = 5in, 13 = 6.5in, etc. Makes sense. I do actually prefer it if the armour gets more effective so that should be better about RTW 2.
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Post by christian on May 8, 2019 6:05:55 GMT -6
The numbers in the raw design file are half an inch per integer, so 10 = 5in, 13 = 6.5in, etc. Makes sense. I do actually prefer it if the armour gets more effective so that should be better about RTW 2. so yeah armor is not more effective it's still just as bad as the Gun penetration says it is
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Post by rob06waves2018 on May 8, 2019 7:11:10 GMT -6
Makes sense. I do actually prefer it if the armour gets more effective so that should be better about RTW 2. so yeah armor is not more effective it's still just as bad as the Gun penetration says it is Well, we'll see on Saturday. I still think some armour is desirable, just so you can close to 15000 yds without being riddled with shells.
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Pleb
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by Pleb on May 8, 2019 7:29:47 GMT -6
Shoot, missed the part in which the engine priority had to be normal, Ill be sending another file to you later today if that’s okay with you.
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Post by marcorossolini on May 8, 2019 7:35:29 GMT -6
Having put my designs in before the rest of this thread, it has definitely made for... interesting... reading.
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Post by griffin01 on May 8, 2019 7:49:54 GMT -6
And Unlike with belt armor (under 25000m) most hits over 25000m are deck hits angling your ship no longer matters Most engagements are Also at long range 30000m+ and it's unsual they go down under 25000m Is that really the case, though? It is, of course, entirely subjective, but from my personal experience, most battles devolve (intentionally or not) into 8000-12000 yard slugfests. Surely enough, at these ranges armour suffers even more, so I'm kind of adding to your argument, but I believe that, when used with sloped deck behind belt armour scheme, a reasonable belt and thick deck armour can reliably protect against citadel hits. Of course, this statement is not backed by any numbers, it is just my experience, so I could be entirely wrong.
As for the questions regarding the existence of the hit angle calculations, I believe there was some mention from the devs either in Tidbits or the manual, but I'll look for it when I get home. As for bow tanking, I believe that due to the lack of control over individual ships there is little incentive to attempt it, which I welcome, as I find it to be a rather silly idea.
Edit: I have found it. The quote: "As William says, the armour values are not absolute. Penetration in the game is modified for hit angle if it is belt armour, then randomized a bit for variations and for the fact that no belt was maximum thickness for its whole extent. There is also a modifier for the armour scheme of the target ship. Ships with WW1 standard protection, belt and sloping deck behind, get a hefty armour bonus to reflect the fact that it was vary hard for a shell to penetrate both belt and deck slope." Link --> Very useful. A goldmine of clarifications regarding the inner workings of the game.
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Post by akosjaccik on May 8, 2019 8:34:29 GMT -6
(...) I do actually prefer it if the armour gets more effective so that should be better about RTW 2. I very much see the merit in the idea of a 12" plate being a plate with a thickness of 12", as that certainly helps one to "visualize" his ships' actual, physical dimensions. Still, in a way I honestly think that design and certainly discussion will "suffer", as while currently working with effective (instead of actual) values gives a good basis for comparison ("shell penetrating 14" at X distance will penetrate the stuff that has the number 14" on screen plus-minus modifiers and rolls"), now it will be yet another parameter (...plus armor quality). This is certainly the more consistent way of doing things and I commend it, but as time goes forth, talking about the interaction of shells and armor will become more and more like talking about for example modern tank armour without RHA values. Problematic.
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Post by christian on May 8, 2019 9:03:18 GMT -6
And Unlike with belt armor (under 25000m) most hits over 25000m are deck hits angling your ship no longer matters Most engagements are Also at long range 30000m+ and it's unsual they go down under 25000m Is that really the case, though? It is, of course, entirely subjective, but from my personal experience, most battles devolve (intentionally or not) into 8000-12000 yard slugfests. Surely enough, at these ranges armour suffers even more, so I'm kind of adding to your argument, but I believe that, when used with sloped deck behind belt armour scheme, a reasonable belt and thick deck armour can reliably protect against citadel hits. Of course, this statement is not backed by any numbers, it is just my experience, so I could be entirely wrong.
As for the questions regarding the existence of the hit angle calculations, I believe there was some mention from the devs either in Tidbits or the manual, but I'll look for it when I get home. As for bow tanking, I believe that due to the lack of control over individual ships there is little incentive to attempt it, which I welcome, as I find it to be a rather silly idea.
Edit: I have found it. The quote: "As William says, the armour values are not absolute. Penetration in the game is modified for hit angle if it is belt armour, then randomized a bit for variations and for the fact that no belt was maximum thickness for its whole extent. There is also a modifier for the armour scheme of the target ship. Ships with WW1 standard protection, belt and sloping deck behind, get a hefty armour bonus to reflect the fact that it was vary hard for a shell to penetrate both belt and deck slope." Link --> Very useful. A goldmine of clarifications regarding the inner workings of the game.
good point but as he also said "[Penetration Values] do not stop changing at 20000 yards, it was just an arbitrary cutoff for the display. " this means that in theory deck hits can become INSANELY powerfull (also i believe the angle he meant is the angle the ship is facing and not the angle the shell hits at (2 diffrent things) this also means 17 inch guns are basically orbital bombardment guns at long range late game i have never had a close range slugfest (1925+) and if one looks to be about to occur either i usually just lost 5 ships or they just lost 5 ships in an instant accuracy at those ranges is simply so high you hit almost all your shots and it becomes a pure killing field true some armor is more effective due to the armor layout though at close range i dont think you should expect to be protected from a 17 inch gun with 14 inches of armor also your turrets are gonna get orbitally bombardet anyway "The program assumes that turret top armor is slightly sloped, at least for part of the turret, so shell penetration is somewhat better against turret tops that against decks. For heavy guns I would recommend a little more armor for TT than D, just as was common in historical ships." and close range sure you can protect yourself from 17 inch fire at 20000 meters but at 15000 meters you run into 20 inches of penetration which will pierce your armor basically no matter what
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Post by aeson on May 8, 2019 9:12:04 GMT -6
Engagement ranges of 30,000+ meters (~32,800+ yards) being anything like common and battles rarely if ever being fought below 25,000 meters (~27,300 yards) strike me as pure fantasy for unmodded Rule the Waves; I cannot recall ever once seeing a sighting range in excess of 30,000 yards in the unmodded game, and with ~35,000-ton ships daytime sighting ranges are more usually in the ballpark of 25,000 yards in near-perfect weather - and considerably less in almost anything else. The heavier guns may very well be capable of shooting far enough for 30km or greater engagement ranges to be theoretically possible in the late game, but your ships can only shoot what they can see, and they cannot see that far even if you're building 52,000-ton behemoths.
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Post by maachlan on May 8, 2019 10:05:51 GMT -6
Engagement ranges of 30,000+ meters (~32,800+ yards) being anything like common and battles rarely if ever being fought below 25,000 meters (~27,300 yards) strike me as pure fantasy for unmodded Rule the Waves; I cannot recall ever once seeing a sighting range in excess of 30,000 yards in the unmodded game, and with ~35,000-ton ships daytime sighting ranges are more usually in the ballpark of 25,000 yards in near-perfect weather - and considerably less in almost anything else. The heavier guns may very well be capable of shooting far enough for 30km or greater engagement ranges to be theoretically possible in the late game, but your ships can only shoot what they can see, and they cannot see that far even if you're building 52,000-ton behemoths. Don't scouting and screen ships allow the big gun ships like BBs and BCs to fire out to beyond their own sighting range?
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Post by aeson on May 8, 2019 10:11:49 GMT -6
Don't scouting and screen ships allow the big gun ships like BBs and BCs to fire out to beyond their own sighting range? I've never seen anything that lead me to believe that indirect fire works in Rule the Waves.
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Post by dorn on May 8, 2019 11:55:06 GMT -6
Royal Navy trained their observers on scout plane a lot and use it early in the WW2. However I am not aware of any firing using only information from scout plane. But on several occasions scout planes helped to more accurate fire on long ranges.
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Post by christian on May 8, 2019 13:48:09 GMT -6
Don't scouting and screen ships allow the big gun ships like BBs and BCs to fire out to beyond their own sighting range? I've never seen anything that lead me to believe that indirect fire works in Rule the Waves. ships can fire at that distance as long as someone else has spotted the ship somehow
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Post by rob06waves2018 on May 8, 2019 14:37:03 GMT -6
I've never seen anything that lead me to believe that indirect fire works in Rule the Waves. ships can fire at that distance as long as someone else has spotted the ship somehow The theory is quite simple. A scout ship of known position relative to the battlegroup sights a target and relays the bearing, range and heading back to the battlegroup. The guns are aimed and fired. The scout relays the location of the shells and how far off the target they were. Using mechanical computers, hopefully the target can be hit. A similar process occurs with a scout plane. In theory, this extends the effective gun range to the sum of the spotting ranges or the absolute gun range, whichever is smaller. However, in practice, this was very hard to achieve. In RTW, the maximum gun range is ~39000yds. The longest recorded battleship hit was a 'mere' 26000yds - from HMS Warspite to an Italian dreadnought.
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Post by aeson on May 8, 2019 14:43:33 GMT -6
I've never seen anything that lead me to believe that indirect fire works in Rule the Waves. ships can fire at that distance as long as someone else has spotted the ship somehow I cannot recall even once seeing a ship fire on a target that it itself cannot see, regardless of how many other ships can see the target, nor can I recall even once seeing a ship continue firing on a target after it loses sight of it regardless of how many other ships can still see the target. If this is such a common occurrence for you, then by all means post battle logs showing hits at 30,000+ yards in an unmodded game, a video of a battle scenario in an unmodded game showing battleships engaging targets that can only be seen by scouting cruisers, even a still picture that clearly demonstrates the same, but I have never seen such occur within the game.
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