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Post by exltcmts on Apr 11, 2021 7:38:03 GMT -6
Not much to comment about on destroyers, Hatfield, Brooks, Gilmer, Fox and Kane had 5" L/51 Mk.7 ILO the 4", while the Hovey and Long had twin mounts, or 8 x 4" L/50 Mk.8. All the Camden built boats could take 5" guns. All the "four pipers" could take a 8" Mk.7 howitzer as an ahead firing ASW weapon. Plans also existed to convert them to DDE, removing a boiler, dropping them to 27 kts and increasing endurance by 50%. It was also planned to make the two rear torpedo mounts easy to remove so they could carry 80 mines. During the 1920s, a number of "four pipers" were converted to fast minelayers and minesweepers and even small aviation tenders. There was the prospect that the USN would build a DE in place of some DDs and Eagle boats. Normal displacement would have been 850 tons, standard at 705 tons, four 5" L/51 Mk.9 and 2 x 3 21" TT, with 1 x 3 L/23. All the DDs had 1 x 3" L/23 AA guns. If Congress had given the Navy some flexibility in completing the 1916-1918 programs (the last "four piper" was completed 9 Aug 22), some of those laid down in 1919 and 1920 could have been completed to a larger design, 1,675 tons normal, 4 x 5" L/51, 2 x 3" L/50 and 4 x 3 21" TT, speed 32-35 kts. The leader program was another possibility, substituting a leader for 2 "four pipers", 2,200 tons, normal, 5 x 5" L/51, 2 x 3" L/50 AA, 4 x 3 21" TT. Otherwise, the first "new" DDs would be the "Farragut" class in 1934.
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Post by seawolf on Apr 11, 2021 14:59:54 GMT -6
OK, thanks. It would seem a simply mod just to adjust a add to the data list. Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this. We're limited to modding this simple table  As well as the penetration tables |
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 12, 2021 1:15:50 GMT -6
Just a note on Japanese battleships. Japan's construction programs were limited by the availability of raw materials (US high quality scrap iron and steel, for example) and by infrastructure. Harbors and inland seas limited maximum draft to 35 feet and launch displacements were limited to 40-45,000 tons. The No.13 class was probably as large as the Japanese could go with their current (1922) infrastructure. It took a lot of work expanding things for the "Yamato" class from 1930-37.
Settsu was the only dreadnought and she was disarmed and converted to a target ship. 21,400 mt.s normal, 20 kts, 12" belt, 4 - 12" L/50 Type 41 (2 x 2), 8 - 12" L/45 Type 38 (4 x 2, 2 turrets @ beam), 10 -6 " L/45 Type 41 (10 x 1), 8 - 4.7" L/40 Type 38 (8 x 1), 4 - 3" L/40 AA (4 x 1), 3 x 18" TT, 850lbs AP shell to 23,100 yds for L/45 @ 20 degrees, 27,600 yds @ 25 degrees for L/50.
Fuso and Yamashiro, completed in 1915/1917, declared at 30,600 metric tons standard (all displacements under the 1922 Treaty for Japan, France and Italy were in metric, not standard tons). Speed was ~23 knots at trial displacement. 12" belt, Yamashiro had 1 a/c from 1923, no catapult or hanger. 12 x 14" L/45 Type 41 (6x2), 16 - 6" L/50 Type 41 (16 x 1), 4 -3 in L/40 Type 41 AA (4 x 1), (increased to 6 in 1923), 6 x 21" TT (fixed, underwater, 1 bow, 1 stern, 2 @ beam, fired the Type 44 No.2 w/300lbs TNT equivalent, 7,650 yds @ 35 kts, 10,900 yds @ 27 kts.). Main guns elevated to 25 degrees and ~30,500 yards.
Ise and Hyuga, completed in 1917/1918, 31,260 mt.s 12 - 14" L/45 Type 41 (6x2), 20 - 5.5" L/50 Type 3 (20 x 1), 4 - 3" L/40 Type 41 AA (4 x 1), 6 x 21" TT. Speed ~23 knots. 12" belt.
Nagato and Mutsu, completed in 1920/1921, 33,800 mt.s, 26 knots, 12" belt, 8 x 16" L/45 Type 3 (4 x 2), 20 x 5.5" L/50 (20 x 1), 4 - 3" L/40 AA (4 x 1), 8 x 21" TT (4 x underwater fixed, 2@ beam, and 4 x above water, 2 @ beam). There is controversy about the bore of these guns, Japan having gone metric in 1917. Most Japanese guns in service at that time were designated by cm.s, such as 36 cm Type 41 (14"), 15cm Type 41 (6"), 8cm (3"). The Type 3 16" gun was designed before the metric conversion to British standards. After the metric conversion, guns were designed and designated in their cm bore, ie. 46cm, 14cm, 20 cm, 20.3cm, 15.5cm, etc. So I believe it was 16" in bore, not 16.1" despite its designation as 41cm. Note the IJA designated the guns from the Tosa mounted as coastal artillery as 40cm!. Turrets elevated 25 degrees as first built, ~32,300 yards using 2,205lbs Type 5 AP shell.
Kaga and Tosa, completed 1923/1924, at 39,900 normal (actually about 39,400 standard), 11" at 15 degree slope, ~26 knots, 10 - 16" L/45 Type 3 (5 x 2), 20 - 5.5" L/50 Type 3 (20 x 1), 4 - 3" L/40 AA (4 x 1), 8 x 24" TT (fixed, above water, 4 @ beam, fired the 61cm Type 8 No.2, 725lbs TNT equivalent, 10,900 yds @ 38 kts, 16,400 yds @ 32 kts and 21,900 yds @ 27 kts.). With the Nagato declated at 33,800 mt.s, the Japanese would have had to cook the books to get Tosa under 35,000 mt.s First, the Japanese declared under the Treaty that Nagato and Mutsu made 22.5 kts. So that's a start, giving you ~ 1,250 tons of machinery. Going all oil boilers would have saved another 500 mt.s. Quoting the 11" belt and not mentioning deck armor thickness, it would look like the Japanese traded 2 x 16" guns for less protection. And the Japanese could always lawyer the weights like the USN did with the Lexington class, claiming the 3,000 tons for mods against subs and air attack. It may have looked iffy, but everyone else was manipulating the Treaty, so most wouldn't have looked to closely, at least on this class. Of course, it doesn't matter with no Washington Treaty. This class and all subsequent classes had 35 degree elevation for guns, giving ~36,000 yds.
Kii, Owari, No.11 and No.12, probably completed 1928 to 1930. 42, 600 tons normal. 11.5" belt sloped at 12 degrees, ~ 27-28 knots (looking at machinery and displacement of last class and this one, I think 29.75 kts was not achievable at stated displacements. It would have taken 136,000 shp to push Tosa to 28.5 kts.). 10 - 16" L/45 Type 3 (5 x 2), 16 - 5.5" L/50 Type 3 (16 x 1), 6 - 4.7" L/45 Type 10 AA (6 x 1), 8 x 24" TT.
Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima, completed 1913-1915, declared at 27,500 mt.s, 27 knots, 8" belt, 1 a/c w/flying off platform, 8 - 14" L/45 Type 41 (4 x 2), 16 - 6" L/50 Type 41 (16 x 1), 4 x 3" L/40 Type 41 AA (4 x 1), 8 x 21" TT. Rebuilt between 1924-1931, displacement ~ 30,000 mt.s, speed 25-26 kts., turrets modified to 33 degree elevation, ~33,000 yds, AA battery increased to 7 guns, fixed TT dropped to 4. Carried 3 a/c but no catapult.
Akagi, Atago, Takao (Amagi was destroyed in the 1923 Tokyo earthquake), completed 1925-1927, 41,200 mt.s normal, 10" belt at 12 degrees (this class also introduced the "all or nothing" system of protection), designed for 30 kts, would probably have been completed with all oil fired boilers, but stated shaft hp isn't enough for 30 kts, probably closer to 28 kts. 10 -16" L/45 Type 3 (5 x 2), 16 - 5.5" Type 3 (16 x 1), 6 - 4.7" L/45 Type 10 (6 x 1), 8 x 24" TT.
No.13, No.14, No.15, No.16, completed 1931-1934, 47,500 mt.s normal (launch displacement would have been 39,000 mt.s, near the limit for Japanese shipbuilding until 1937, designed for 30 kts, but probably good for 27-28 kts, 13" belt sloped at 15 degrees, 8 - 18.1" L/50 Type 5 (4 x 2, 3000lbs Type 5 AP shell to ~38,000 yds), 16 - 5.5" L/50 (16 x 1, if previous classes didn't adopt twin gun mounts, this might have), 8 - 4.7" L/45 Type 10 AA (8x1), 8 x 24" TT. Alternate weapons were 12.7cm Type 88 L/40 AA guns, twin mounts and/or the 61cm Type 90 torpedo, 827lbs TNT, 7,650 yds @ 46 kts, 10,900 yds @ 42 kts, 16,400 yds @ 32 kts. All these ships might have gained 8 - 4cm (UK 2pdr Mk.II) Type 88 or HI from 1925. There was also the 1.2cm Type 88 or BI (Vickers .50 Mk.III) from 1925 and all could have mounted 8 Lewis guns (7.7mm Type 92). Both the 61cm Type 93 oxygen fueled torpedo and the 13.2mm Type 93 Hotchkiss HMG were right around the corner for the No.13 class.
Pre-dreadnoughts - Satsuma, Aki, completed 1910/11, 19,300/20,100 mt.s normal, 20 kts, 9" belt, Aki had US Curtiss turbines, Satsuma had VTE. 4 x 12" L/45 Type 38/41 (2 x 2), 12 x 10" L/45 Type 41 (6 x 2, three turrets each beam), 12 - 4.7" L/40 Type 41 (12 x 1), Aki had 8 - 6" L/45 Type 38 (8 x 1), 4 (Aki, 8) - 3" L/40 SP (4/8 x 1), 2 x 3" L/40 AA, 5 - 18" TT (Fixed, underwater, 1 bow, 2 @ beam). They were disarmed in 1922 (before the Treaty) and used as targets in 1923.
Kashima, Katori, completed 1906, 16,400 mt.s normal, 18.5 kts, 9" belt, 4 - 12" L/45 Type 38 (2 x 2), 4 - 10" L/45 Type 38 (4 x 1), 12 - 6" L/45 Type 38 (12 x 1), 12 - 3" L/40 SP (12 x 1), 2 x 3" L/40 AA (2 x 1), 5 x 18" TT. Disarmed in 1922, scrapped 1923. 18" Type 44 No.2, 220 lbs TNT equivalent, 4,400 yds @ 35 kts, 8,750 yds @ 26 knts.
Ikoma, ranked as CB, completed 1908, 13, 750 mt.s normal, 21 kts, VTE, 7" belt, 4 - 12" L/45 Type 38 (2 x 2), 12 - 6" L/45 Type 38 (12 x 1), 8-4.7" L/40 Type 38 (8 x 1), 6 x 3" L/40 AA (6 x 1), 2 x 4cm (2pdr Mk.I) AA, 3 x 18" TT. Re-rated 1st class cruiser, 1921, then as gunnery training ship. Disarmed 1922, scrapped 1923.
Ibuki, Kurama, ranked as CB, completed 1909/1911, 14,600 mt.s normal, 21 kts (Ibuki DD turbines, Kurama, VTE), 7" belt, 4 - 12" L/45 Type 38 (2 x 2), 8 - 8" L/45 Type 38 (4 x 2), 14 - 4.7" L/40 Type 38 (14 x 1), 4 - 3" L/40 AA, 3 x 18" TT. Scrapped 1924.
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 12, 2021 1:20:42 GMT -6
OK, thanks. It would seem a simply mod just to adjust a add to the data list. Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this. We're limited to modding this simple table View AttachmentAs well as the penetration tables Yes, I looked at this file and tried to add specific US guns into the table, then when I booted the game and checked Pennsylvania, I got "illegal gun", something like this. I assume first column is ID by inches, second is weight of shell, third is ROF and fourth is range? How do you mod this table? British 15" shells were 1920lbs for the "Green Boy" introduced in 1918 and 1938lbs for the 6 crh introduced in the late 1930s, the shell weight in the table is the German 38cm SKL/45 from WW1.. |
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 12, 2021 1:28:46 GMT -6
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this. We're limited to modding this simple table View AttachmentAs well as the penetration tables Yes, I looked at this file and tried to add specific US guns into the table, then when I booted the game and checked Pennsylvania, I got "illegal gun", something like this. I assume first column is ID by inches, second is weight of shell, third is ROF and fourth is range? How do you mod this table? British 15" shells were 1920lbs for the "Green Boy" introduced in 1918 and 1938lbs for the 6 crh introduced in the late 1930s, the shell weight in the table is the German 38cm SKL/45 from WW1.. (68.5 KB)This is based on work I did for NWS on the FS mod back 15-20 years ago. I am working on a 1939 "Plan Orange" scenario for WitP. |
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 12, 2021 1:34:31 GMT -6
Yes, I looked at this file and tried to add specific US guns into the table, then when I booted the game and checked Pennsylvania, I got "illegal gun", something like this. I assume first column is ID by inches, second is weight of shell, third is ROF and fourth is range? How do you mod this table? British 15" shells were 1920lbs for the "Green Boy" introduced in 1918 and 1938lbs for the 6 crh introduced in the late 1930s, the shell weight in the table is the German 38cm SKL/45 from WW1.. This is based on work I did for NWS on the FS mod back 15-20 years ago. I am working on a 1939 "Plan Orange" scenario for WitP. BTW I'm stationed in Wiesbaden, Germany as a DAC, so I'm 6 hours ahead. |
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Post by christian on Apr 12, 2021 2:04:16 GMT -6
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this. We're limited to modding this simple table View AttachmentAs well as the penetration tables Yes, I looked at this file and tried to add specific US guns into the table, then when I booted the game and checked Pennsylvania, I got "illegal gun", something like this. I assume first column is ID by inches, second is weight of shell, third is ROF and fourth is range? How do you mod this table? British 15" shells were 1920lbs for the "Green Boy" introduced in 1918 and 1938lbs for the 6 crh introduced in the late 1930s, the shell weight in the table is the German 38cm SKL/45 from WW1.. You cant add new guns to the table or rename them as far as im aware you can change the stats like SW and ROF and MR but not the name |
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Post by seawolf on Apr 12, 2021 2:54:11 GMT -6
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by this. We're limited to modding this simple table View AttachmentAs well as the penetration tables Yes, I looked at this file and tried to add specific US guns into the table, then when I booted the game and checked Pennsylvania, I got "illegal gun", something like this. I assume first column is ID by inches, second is weight of shell, third is ROF and fourth is range? How do you mod this table? British 15" shells were 1920lbs for the "Green Boy" introduced in 1918 and 1938lbs for the 6 crh introduced in the late 1930s, the shell weight in the table is the German 38cm SKL/45 from WW1.. You can't actually modify shell weights, in terms of their performance in battle. |
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 12, 2021 23:32:11 GMT -6
Too bad, given the simplicity of the links within the app, the developer could have done this themselves with just some additional research. It is a flaw in the game, as one of the line of naval development between 1900 to 1945 was that of both armor quality and schemes and that of the designs and manufacturing of guns and shells and their performance. The Italians built good guns then ruined them with poor shell QC. US Class "A" armor was basically the pre-WWI Krupp pattern until the 1930s when further development made it excellent in thicknesses from 3"-8" in the 1930s, but not so much in thicker plates. One reason the US BBs feature a 13.5" belt from 1916 to 1919 is that the USN did not believe its suppliers could maintain QC on plates thicker than 13.5". Oh, well, another game on the shelf, figuratively speaking.
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 13, 2021 4:00:45 GMT -6
The British Empire in 1922 was paying the price of being the first into the Industrial Revolution, the effects of four years of total war (the promises of social programs for the veterans and the populace at large) and the impact of a massive war debt (much of it in the hands of US banks) on government spending and the economy. Even before 1922, the RN was quickly disposing of pre-dreadnoughts, armored cruisers and 12" gun battleships and battle cruisers. It is still a question whether the government in 1922 would have actually funded the four G3, though the RN ordered them for laying down in 1922. In 1919, Japan became the next enemy. The Anglo-Japanese Alliance of 1902 was fraying thanks to Japanese actions during the war (the 21 Demands on China, taking political and economic advantage of the European concentration on Europe to push them out of Chinese markets, sweeping up the German colonies in the Pacific and China at little cost and the frequent refusal to send the Kongos and a couple of divisions despite Japan profiting from selling merchant ships and other products to the Allies). In any case, the US feared Japan-British Empire alliance was a fantasy, the US being specifically excluded by the British from the terms of the alliance. Despite occasional outbreaks of Anglophobia on the part of senior USN leaders, the British maintained their policy of entente and peace with the US decided on back in 1850. This made Singapore critical, as the British plan was to leave a small covering force in European waters in case of war with Japan and move the rest of the fleet to the Far East. The British plan was similar to Plan Orange in that the British would move by bounds toward Japan, recover Hong Kong, impose a blockade and destroy the Japanese Main Body when it came out to fight and break the blockade.
In the case of the RN, the limits of the British shipbuilding and naval infrastructure had been reached. 900 feet overall and 45,000 tons standard displacement was the largest capital ship the British could build, and that on only four slips (for warships, there were two for even larger commercial ships, but they lacked the supporting facilities like cranes to build a warship), without a massive investment. In addition, until the completion of the KGV dock at Singapore, there were exactly five dry docks in the entire empire that could handle such large ships. Guns were not a problem, but the G3 and N3 featured three gun turrets, something entirely new to the RN and the British shipbuilding industry, though companies like Armstrong had assisted the subsidiaries in Italy and Russia in designing and building three gun turrets. There was also the reaction to the losses at Jutland with a stricter application of flash tightness in ammo handling. The result is that the three gun 16" turrets for the G3 which ended up in the "Nelson" and "Rodney" gave trouble for several years and Rodney still didn't achieve her theoretical rate of fire during the final fight with the Bismarck. There would also be a problem with erosion, accuracy and salvo dispersion due to the use of a light, long shell and high velocity, an approach diametrically opposite of previous British practice in heavy guns. This was a result of misanalysis of the firing trials at ex-SMS Baden. The 16" Mk.I (L/45) was intended to fire a 2,048lbs shell at 2,700 fps. As a comparison, the 16" L/45 gun designed by Vickers for Russia ca. 1914 fired a 2,461lbs shell at 2,485 fps. The British had to de-rate the 16" Mk.I to 2,586 fps, reducing penetration and range, though improving gun life and accuracy. New rifling helped boost this back to 2,614 fps, but the gun compared unfavorably with the US guns and especially the Japanese 16" gun. The 18" guns and turrets in the N3 would have suffered similar problems, with a 2,916lbs shell at 2,650 fps. This compares to the US 18" L/50 Mk.1 (2,900lbs at 2,700 fps) and the Japanese 46cm L/45 Type 5 (~3,000lbs at 2,600 fps). The British studied producing a 2,250lbs shell for the Mk.I, which would have solved some of the issues, but funds weren't available and when funds became available, there wasn't time. Note that the 16" L/45 Gun Mk.II for the Lion class fired a 2,375lbs shell at 2,450 fps. British armor at this time was basically a slightly modified Krupp formula and good QC was exercised on thick plates, though not until the G3 and N3 did belt the climb past 13". The British were quite conservative with steam plants, not adopting small tube boilers until 1918 and tested high temperature and high pressure boilers in destroyers, which they abandoned after problems arose. The same thing happened with oxygen fueled torpedoes, which the British also abandoned settling for oxygen enriched torpedoes and fairly quickly returning to air and kerosene.
N3 class, no names allocated, four complete in 1928, four more in 1930. 48,500 tons normal, 23 knots, 15" belt sloped at 15 degrees (these and G3 adopted the "all or nothing" system), 9 -18" L/45 Mk.I (3 x 3), 16 - 6" L/50 Mk. XXII (8 x 2, 4 on ea beam, to be used for AA barrage fire), 6 -4.7" L/40 Mk.VIII AA, (6 x 1, may have mounted more or an alternate 8 - 4" L/45 HA Mk.V (8 x 1), 40 - 2pdr Mk.VIII (10 x 4, these mounts were not available until 1931, and often single Mk.II 2pdrs were substituted, likely 8 x 1), 2 x 24.5" fixed underwater beam tubes aimed forward, firing the oxygen-enriched Mk.I, 743lbs TNT, 15,000 yds @ 35 kts and 20,000 yds @ 30 kts. 3 a/c, 2 flying off platforms, catapults not available until the early 1930s
"R" class - Revenge, Royal Oak, Royal Sovereign, Ramillies and Resolution, completed 1916-17, declared at 25,750st., 21 kts, 13" belt, 8 x 15" L/42 Mk.I (4 x 2, elevation 20 degrees), 14 - 6" L/45 Mk.XII (14 x 1), 4 - 4" L/45 Mk.V AA (4 x 1), 4 - 2pdr Mk.II (4 x 1), 4 x 21" TT (uw beam, Mk.IV, 515lbs TNT, 8,000 yds @ 35 kts, 10,000 yds @ 29 kts, 13,500 yds @ 25 kts). Ramillies was "bulged" as completed, Resolution and Revenge in 1917-18. Bulges weighed in at 2,500 tons, so maybe the British did a bit of "lawyering" themselves, as this indicates they should have been declared at 28,250 st. 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Malaya, Valiant, Barham - completed 1915-1916, declared at 27,500 st, 23 kts (the refusal to adopt small tube boilers meant that they were intended to reach 25 kts at max overload of the machinery, but they all turned out overweight and 24 kts was the best they could do at trials), 13" belt, 8 - 15" L/42 Mk.I (4 x 2 20 degrees), 12 - 6" L/45 Mk.XII (12 x 1), 4 - 4" L/45 Mk.V AA (4 x 1), 4 x 2pdr Mk.II, 4 x 21" TT, 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
Iron Duke, Empress of India, Benbow, Marlborough, completed 1914, declared at 25,000 st (which is why I doubt the "R" class displacement), 21 kts (last coal fired British capital ships), 12" belt, 10 - 13.5" L/45 (5 x 2, 20 degrees), 12 - 6" L/45 Mk.XII (12 x 1), 4 - 4" L/45 Mk.V AA, 4 - 2pdr Mk.II, 4 x 21" TT, 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
King George V, Ajax, Centurion, completed 1912-13, declared at 23,000 sts. 21 kts, 12" belt, 10 - 13.5" L/45 (5 x 2, 20 degrees), 14 - 4" L/50 Mk. VII (14 x 1), 2 - 4" L/45 Mk.V AA (2 x 1), 3 - 21" TT (1 @ beam, 1 stern), 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
Conqueror, Monarch, Orion, Thunderer, completed 1912, declared at 22,500 st., 21 kts, 12" belt, 10 - 13.5" L/45 (5 x 2, 20 degrees), 14 - 4" L/50 Mk.VII (14 x 1), 2 - 4" L/45 Mk.V AA (2 x 1), 3 - 21" TT (1 @ beam, 1 stern), 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
Colossus, stricken 1920 (Cadet TS hulk), Hercules scrapped 1921, Neptune Reserve 1919, scrapped 1922, St. Vincent paid off 1919, scrapped 1921, Collingwood, Reserve 1919, scrapped 1922, Bellerophon and Temeraire for disposal 1919, scrapped 1921, Superb stricken 1920, scrapped 1923, Dreadnought, for sale 1920, scrapped 1921.
G3, no names assigned (probably Rodney, Nelson, Anson and Howe), four complete in 1926, four more in 1932. 48,400 tons normal, 31 kts, 14" belt sloped 15 degrees, 9 - 16" L/45 Mk.I (3 x 3), 16 - 6" L/50 Mk.XXII (8 x 2), 6 - 4.7" L/40 Mk.VIII AA (6x 1), 40 - 2pdr Mk.VIII and 2 x 24.5" TT. 3 a/c, 2 flying off platforms, catapults not available until the early 1930s
Hood, completed 1920, declared at 41,200 st, 31 kts, 12" belt sloped 15 degrees, 8 - 15" L/42 Mk.I (4 x 2, Mk.II turrets, 30 degree elevation), 12 - 5.5 L/50 Mk.I (12 x 1), 4 - 4" L/45 Mk.V AA, 6 x 21" TT ( 1 @ beam UW, 2 @ beam aw), 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
Renown, Repulse, completed 1916, declared at 26,500 sts, Repulse had just completed a 3 year rebuild (1918-21), original 6" belt became upper belt, 9" plates from converted "Eagle" as new belt, added deck protection, bulges, no new machinery, Renown was 6,000 tons more when rebuilt (1923-1926) and had no upper belt. Again, small tube boilers and lighter machinery rejected, speed was 29-30 kts, 6" belt (Renown until 1923), 6 -15 " L/42 Mk.I (3 x 2, 20 degrees), 15 - 4" L/44 Mk.IX (5 x 3, amazing that the opportunity to change this was taken as there were excess 5.5" guns available), 4 - 4" L/45 Mk.V AA (4 x 1), 2 x 21" TT (1 @ beam, uw), 8 x 21" TT (aw, 4 @ beam fixed after rebuilds), 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
Tiger, completed 1914, declared at 28,500 st, 28 kts, coal & oil fired boilers, 9" belt, 8 - 13.5" L/45 Mk.V (4 x 2, 20 degrees), 12 - 6" L/45 Mk.XII (12 x 1), 2 x 3" L/40 Mk. II AA (2 x 1, 4-4" L/45 Mk.V AA in 1923, 2 x 1 in 1924), 4 x 21" TT (2 @ beam, uw), 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
Lion, Princess Royal, completed 1912, 26,270 ts normal, 27 kts (coal fired), 9" belt, 27 kts, 8 - 13.5" L/45 Mk.V (4 x 2, 20 degrees), 14 - 4" L/50 Mk.VII (14 x 1), 2 x 3" L/40 Mk. II AA, 2 x 21" TT (1 @ beam, uw), 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms.
Australia (RAN), New Zealand, completed 1912-1913, 18,500 ts. normal, 25 kts, 6" belt, 8 - 12" L/45 Mk.X (4 x 2, 20 degrees), 12 - 4" L/50 Mk.VII (12 x 1), 2 x 4" L/45 Mk.V AA, 3 x 21" TT ( 1 @beam, 1 stern, uw), 2 a/c and 2 flying off platforms. In a world filled with 16" and 18" guns, these ships were manifestly obsolete, yet retained for prestige reasons.
Indomitable, Inflexible, Reserve in 1919, scrapped 1922.
Looking back through the references, the first six BB1918 battleships would have been built 53,000 tons, 30 kts, 13.5" belt sloped, 12 x 16" L/50 Mk.II. The next four would have been close to the "Tillman" 60,000 ton design, probably 63,000 tons, 27 kts, 13.5-16" belt sloped, 12 x 18" L/50 Mk.I.
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 13, 2021 5:46:35 GMT -6
In 1922, the French were in bad shape. The French were already dealing with severe restrictions on the size of capital ships that they could build and sustain. Then the focus during the war on surviving the German attack put all concentration on land (and later, air) forces. Dockyards, building slips, naval infrastructure all suffered from attrition as they were canibalized and atrophied as building was focused on escorts and small combatants. Armor and machinery manufacturing industries suffered, though heavy guns continued to be produced through the war for railway mounts. Design teams dispersed as did trained workforces. It is generally acknowledged that the French warship industry did not fully recover from the Great War until 1938, at which point further investments in expanding building and sustainment capacity had to compete with re-armament. 35,000 ton capital ships, much less those of 40,000 to 45,000 tons were beyond France's industrial capacity in 1922. Whatever fleet she did build would be severely out-numbered and out-gunned. At this point, with Germany supine, Italy as her major rival in the Med and Japan as a threat to France's SEA colonies and position in China were the obvious enemies. France did not expect her rivalry with Italy to break into war and expected to fight Japan in alliance with Britain. With economic recovery a priority, the Navy would be playing "second fiddle" for some time. One issue the French faced was they had under-estimated the impact of modern gunnery and fire control, envisaging before Jutland, engagements at 8-10,000 meters, which is why there superstructure was low and no gunnery stations in the masts and turret elevation was limited. As a result they had to rebuild their capital ships with heavy tripods like the British system of DCTs aloft and RFs below them.
The Lyon class, authorized in 1912, (names given are Lyon, Lille, Duquesne and Tourville, but these would probably have changed to something more important like France (the "Courbet" class BB was lost in 1922), Verdun, etc) would have had to wait for some time before being laid down, and probably to a revised design, featuring more powerful main guns. If laid down, they would have been completed in 1928-29, and like Dunkerque and Strabourg, they would have been built in two pieces as there were no docks or slips long enough. data - 32,000 mt.s normal displacement, 26 kts w/oil fired geared turbines, 13.4" belt, greater beam for torpedo defenses, 9 - 14.9" (38cm) L/45 (3 x 3, the center turret would be dropped for more machinery space and the forward turret dropped to the main deck, 35 degrees elevation), 16 - 5.5" (138mm) L/50 Mle 29 (16 x 1, the aft and forward guns would be dropped and the secondary moved to shielded single mounts amidships on the main deck), 8 - 2.95" (75mm) L/50 Mle 27 AA (8 x 1), 8 x 21.7" TT (4 @ beam, aw, 55cm Mle 23DT, 683 lbs TNT, 9,840 yds @ 39 kts, 14,200 yds @ 35 kts), 2 a/c, 2 flying off platforms.
Greece sought to have a "Bretagne" class BB built pre-war and it is possible that France could sell Greece one for the cash. So since the French operated their BBs in three ship divisions, we have four "Normandie" completed as BB to go with the remaining two "Bretagne".
Normandie, Languedoc, Gascoigne, Flandre - completed 1924-25, mostly to clear the slip and re-employ the demobilized dockyard and factory workers. Fitted w/bulges, ~28,000 mts normal, 22 kts on combined VTE & turbines, oil fired boilers, 11.75" belt, 12 - 13.4" L/45 Mle 12/24 (3 x 4, these guns were retained with mods as the quickest and cheapest way to arm these ships, 23 degrees elevation), 16 - 5.5" L/55 Mle 10/22 (16 x 1, partially mounted in casemates and shielded mounts, forward and aft casemates dropped), 8 - 2.95" L/50 Mle 22 AA (8 x 1), 4 x 17.7" (45 cm TT, uw, 2 @ beam, Mle 18, 320lbs TNT, 8, 750 yds @ 28 kts. 2 a/c, 2 flying off platforms.
Lorraine, Provence, completed 1915-16, 23,000 mt.s normal, 20 kts, coal-fired boilers, 10.6" belt (these ships were poor sea boats because of their heavy bow armor, which was removed in the next rebuild), 10 - 13.4" L/45 Mle 12 (5 x 2, 18 degree elevation, modified in 1919-21), 22 - 5.5" L/55 Mle 10 (22 x 1), 4 - 47mm Hotchkiss (3pdr) AA, 4 x 45 cm TT (2 @ beam). These ships were essentially the previous class re-armed with 10 x 13.4" guns.
Courbet, Jean Bart, Paris, completed 1913-1914, 22,000 mts., 20 kts (made 21-22kts on trials with engines forced), coal-fired boilers, 10.6" belt, 12 - 12" L/45 Mle 10 (6x 2, superfiring and wing turrets, 12 degrees elevation), 22 - 5.5" L/55 Mle 10, 4 -47mm AA, 4 x 45cm TT.
The French retained their latest pre-dreadnoughts for some time, though the rest were quickly disposed of, those that survived the war.
Condorcet, Diderot & Voltaire had their torpedo protection improved 1922-25. Danton had been sunk, Mirabeau had run aground and Vergniaud had been disposed of as a target. Completed, 1911, 18,300 mts normal, 19 kts, coal fired, 10.6" belt, 4 - 12" L/45 Mle 06 (2 x 2, 12 degrees elevation), 12 - 9.4" L/50 Mle 02 (6 x 2, 3 @ beam, elevation mod to 18 degrees), 12 - 2.95" L/65 Mle 06 (12 x 1), 12 x 2.95" L/55 Mle 22 AA ( 2 on @ 24cm turret), 2 x 45cm TT.
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 14, 2021 5:24:53 GMT -6
Italy in 1922 was economically depressed, suffering political stresses that would result in the rise of Mussolini. Italy was the weakest of the European "Great Powers", and while her naval shipbuilding and infrastructure had suffered no damage, she could not financially sustain her pre-war building program, especially since she basically had to import almost all her oil (Libya was not yet a petroleum producer), along with iron and steel. As a result, she cancelled the entire Caracciolo class, which had been suspended in 1916 and gradually shifted her battleships into Reserve status. Note that the Italian armaments industry was almost a subsidiary of the British, Vickers, Armstrong and Elswick both designing and building guns, alongside their Italian subsidiaries like OTO and Vickers-Terni. This connection remained right up through 1939.
The "Caracciolo" class showed that unlike France, Italy could build 35,000 ton battleships even in 1916. Though they were all scrapped in 1921, though some planning went into converting one into a carrier. Data was:
31,400 mt.s normal, 28 kts, oil fired boilers, 11.8" belt, 8 - 38cm L/40 M14, (14.8", 4 x 2), 12 - 6" L/50 M13-18(12 x 1), 8 - 4" L/45 AA (8 x 1), 10 - 2pdr Mk.II AA (10 x 1), 8-21" (aw fixed).
Andrea Doria, Caio Duilio, completed 1915-1916, 23,000 mt.s normal, 21 kts, oil/coal fired boilers, 10" belt, 13- 12" L/46 M09 (3 x 3, 2 x 2 superfiring), 16 - 6" L/45 M11 (16 x 1), 13 - 3" L/50 M09 (13 x 1), 6 - 3" L/40 M17 (6 x 1), 2 x 40mm (2pdr Mk.II, 2 x 1), 3 x 45cm TT (uw, fixed, 1bow, 1 @ beam)
Giulio Cesare, Conte de Cavour, completed 1914-1915, 23,000 mt.s normal, 21 kts, 10" belt, 13 - 12" L/46 M09 (3 x 3, 2 x 2), 18 - 4.7" L/50 M09 (18 x 1), 13 x 3" L/50 M09 (13 x 1), 6 x 3" L/40 M17 (6 x 1), 3 - 17.7" TT. Leonardo da Vinci, "sunk by Austrian sabotage", had been refloated in 1919 and it was initially planned to overhaul her, with her damaged central turret removed, reducing her to 10 - 12" L/46 M09, and to add 6 - 4" L/35 AA (6 x 1). With the turret removed, she would have probably displaced ~21,500 and gained a knot in speed.
Regina Elena, Vittorio Emanuele, Roma, Napoli, completed 1907-08, 12,600 mt.s normal, 21 kts, 9.8" belt, mixed firing, 2 - 12" L/40 M04 (2 x 1), 12 - 8" L/45 M97 (6 x 2), 16 (first two)/24 (last two) - 3" L/40 M97 (16/24 x 1), 2 x 17.7" TT. Regina Elena, Vittorio Emanuele was stricken 1923, Napoli in 1927, Roma became a harbor TS in 1927 and was stricken 1932.
All other pre-dreadnoughts had been converted to tenders, had sunk in WWI or been stricken by 1920.
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 14, 2021 5:41:41 GMT -6
As far as displacement:
There is -
Light - the ship complete w/o crew, supplies, ammo, fuel or reserve feed water, though sometimes flooded spaces in the torpedo protection system were counted and sometimes not.
Standard - full crew and supplies, 100% ammo (but see below) and no fuel or reserve feed water
Trial, normal - Usually with full crew but 2/3s supplies, ammo, fuel and reserve feed water
Battle - Full crew, 2/3 fuel, reserve feed water, supplies, but 100% ammo (war load, some navies would declare 100rpg for standard displacement when the magazines could hold 120)
Full load - Full crew, 100% supplies, fuel, reserve feed water and war ammo
Emergency, Overload, deep load - This is full load, with all tankage space filled, all supplies and maybe 120% ammo
As an example (from Friedman, US Battleships)
Iowa (BB-61) 1943
Light - 43,875 tons (standard tons of 2,240lbs) There are short tons (2,000 lbs), long tons (equal to standard ton) and metric ton (which is measured as 2,205lbs)
Standard - 47,825 tons (2,557 tons ammo, 990 tons supplies)
Normal - 55,425 tons (6,835 tons fuel, 327 tons reserve feed water)
Full - 57,540 tons (2,887 tons ammo, 1,485 tons supplies, 421 tons reserve feed water, 7,892 tons fuel)
Emergency - 59,331 tons (3,068 tons ammo, 777 tons reserve feed water, 9,320 tons fuel)
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Post by exltcmts on Apr 14, 2021 5:47:13 GMT -6
Sorry, missed Dante Alighieri, completed 1913, 19,500 mt.s normal, 22 kts, oil & mixed firing boilers, 10" belt, 12 - 12" L/46 M09 (4 x3, all on main deck), 20 - 4.7" L/50 M09 (20 x 1), 16 - 3" ,L/50 M09 (16 x 1), 4 - 3" L/40 AA (4 x 1), 3 x 17.7" TT. Small seaplane, no flying off platform or catapult, stricken 1928.
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Post by joebob1337 on Apr 16, 2021 14:49:48 GMT -6
For some reason, using the Austria-Hungary submod, after every turn the game throws hundreds of error saying that no ships have any locations.
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