|
Post by epigon on May 28, 2020 17:59:55 GMT -6
I have drafted an interesting design at half of price of Komintern. It would be an interesting match-up. And a min-max Glass Cannon. Recognizing the threat posed by aircraft, the protection is mostly against AP bombs (magazine deck, turret top) and torpedoes (Lvl 4), together with Unit Machinery for added survivability. 5 of these would cost as much as 2 Kominterns.
|
|
|
Post by epigon on May 28, 2020 18:06:19 GMT -6
Something that reaches to 20-25k yards won't be bothered by ... even 5 inch deck and turret top. My experience is that ~5 inches of deck armor is sufficient for gunnery engagements out to ~25,000 yards against the guns you'll actually see in the game, and the in-game armor penetration tables support that:
The 17", 18", 19", and 20" tables are included because I had access to them, but seeing as the computer pretty much never builds a ship armed with such weapons in the unmodded game I don't see any good reason to worry about them unless you're running with a mod that causes that to happen, and seeing as 5" deck armor is enough to exclude 15", 16", and even 17" shells out to about 25,000 yards I very much doubt if any lighter heavy gun would be a significant issue for it.
Those tables are from a 1963 save state with full research.
I am concerned about turret top factor (curvature reduces effective armour protection of turret tops) and the armour performance & penetration variance (up to 20% IIRC). So I build in a 20-25% proofing. I might be wrong or working on incorrect assumptions. How do the armour quality and AP tech scale over time? Are there timeline points with significant differences in progress?
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 28, 2020 18:38:01 GMT -6
My experience is that ~5 inches of deck armor is sufficient for gunnery engagements out to ~25,000 yards against the guns you'll actually see in the game, and the in-game armor penetration tables support that:
The 17", 18", 19", and 20" tables are included because I had access to them, but seeing as the computer pretty much never builds a ship armed with such weapons in the unmodded game I don't see any good reason to worry about them unless you're running with a mod that causes that to happen, and seeing as 5" deck armor is enough to exclude 15", 16", and even 17" shells out to about 25,000 yards I very much doubt if any lighter heavy gun would be a significant issue for it.
Those tables are from a 1963 save state with full research.
I am concerned about turret top factor (curvature reduces effective armour protection of turret tops) and the armour performance & penetration variance (up to 20% IIRC). So I build in a 20-25% proofing. I might be wrong or working on incorrect assumptions. How do the armour quality and AP tech scale over time? Are there timeline points with significant differences in progress? I don't know the answer but it is a good question. Just to let you know, when I designed Komintern, it was my version of a fast battleship but the AI made it battlecruiser. This is why the armor was much heavier. I also don't like all forward guns. During maneuvers I want my rear guns to maintain fire. I added floatplanes to provide good scouting and spotting. However, your designs are very good designs, I might steal them.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 28, 2020 20:28:49 GMT -6
I've decided to start playing games in both start times until I reach a point where the country is going to war. I might then resign but keep the game. I've learned that I can keep using the game to develop ships during that time period. So my thought is, I will keep the old games, reload them on my decktop, or my notebook and the possibly have all the countries in all time periods to design games. Sounds like a lot work but I am retired, so I have all day, 7 days a week. I've just started Germany in 1920 and here is an attempt to build a Panzerschiffe like the Deutschland's class of the early '30's. Since this class of ships were designed as surface raiders, I put engine priority on reliability. She also is designed with long range. She is well armed with secondaries and tertiaries which are dual purpose, at least the 3 inch guns are. She also has torpedo tubes and light AA guns. Keep in mind, this is 1921 and I've only just begun.
|
|
|
Post by seawolf on May 28, 2020 23:58:57 GMT -6
Thought I'd share this 1915 Russian "Torpedo Cruiser"
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 29, 2020 9:36:17 GMT -6
Here is the German version of the River class although it is faster and better armed. In the version I have built, I upgraded to 5 inch guns.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 29, 2020 14:31:14 GMT -6
Just some information on my German game. I am now in 1930 and have beaten the British. I learned, when the British force comes into view, I turn, accelerate and head for home. However, I put my destroyers in flotilla attack mode. This tactic is working to perfection. I have sunk at least two BC and other ships and lost two old destroyers. I am really happy to be in 1930 to expand my ships. Here is an updated 1400 tonner. I have increased her main armament from 4 inch singles to 5 inch doubles. She now has one 3 tube torpedo launcher. She has 12 mines and extra depth charges with K guns. She did lose about three knots but that is tolerable. When I get to 2000 tonners, I will duplicate this but gain back the speed. Update: I just finished a one month war with Italy. They lost badly.
|
|
|
Post by seawolf on May 29, 2020 15:16:58 GMT -6
Just some information on my German game. I am now in 1930 and have beaten the British. I learned, when the British force comes into view, I turn, accelerate and head for home. However, I put my destroyers in flotilla attack mode. This tactic is working to perfection. I have sunk at least two BC and other ships and lost two old destroyers. I am really happy to be in 1930 to expand my ships. Here is an updated 1400 tonner. I have increased her main armament from 4 inch singles to 5 inch doubles. She now has one 3 tube torpedo launcher. She has 12 mines and extra depth charges with K guns. She did lose about three knots but that is tolerable. When I get to 2000 tonners, I will duplicate this but gain back the speed. Update: I just finished a one month war with Italy. They lost badly. It would save you a bit of weight if you removed added depth charges and added more K guns. Saves you a bit of weight so you get the same bang for less bucks
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 29, 2020 15:27:16 GMT -6
Just some information on my German game. I am now in 1930 and have beaten the British. I learned, when the British force comes into view, I turn, accelerate and head for home. However, I put my destroyers in flotilla attack mode. This tactic is working to perfection. I have sunk at least two BC and other ships and lost two old destroyers. I am really happy to be in 1930 to expand my ships. Here is an updated 1400 tonner. I have increased her main armament from 4 inch singles to 5 inch doubles. She now has one 3 tube torpedo launcher. She has 12 mines and extra depth charges with K guns. She did lose about three knots but that is tolerable. When I get to 2000 tonners, I will duplicate this but gain back the speed. Update: I just finished a one month war with Italy. They lost badly. It would save you a bit of weight if you removed added depth charges and added more K guns. Saves you a bit of weight so you get the same bang for less bucks My design team and I will review your suggestions. The problem is that K guns fire depth charges along with the stern racks. The more depth charges the more I can drop and shoot. But my team and I will review you suggestion. While weight is important.... accomplishing the mission to protect the fleet from submarines is most important.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 29, 2020 15:29:19 GMT -6
Here is my latest carrier design from Germany. I put a little more emphasis on armor including the conning tower and the deck. She still has 92 aircraft and good speed. She is well armed for protection. My design team and I are very happy.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 30, 2020 13:46:40 GMT -6
Just some information on machinery boxes for cruisers. The British used machinery protection AKA box, that had 3in side and 1.5 in deck. They understood that if they reduced the machinery requirements from 60,000 shp to 48,000 shp. then the machinery weight would be reduced and the shorter machinery box would require less protection. This information is for the Arethusa class intermediate cruiser. It was requested that a design for fleet cruiser be developed. A range of 5500 nm was requested at 16kts. Magazines were to be protected against 6in fire which meant, 3in sides, 2in crowns and 2in ends. They were up against the machinery box. They also wanted a 1in splinter deck over the machinery. After this, the actual designers had to try get this all into a ship of 500 ft. or less. To get the required fuel load, they had to extend the length to 500 feet. Update: The class of light cruisers that my information was based on, was the Arethusa. Here is my design attempt at duplicating the Arethusa class. It was the best I could do under the circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 30, 2020 20:10:54 GMT -6
The DNC has requested that we upgrade the Leander class to the improved Leander. So here is the new accepted design. The new design is heavier by 1000 tons, but has the same Max speed so we can assume she is longer to accept the newer larger engines. We've added a second dual 6in turret as requested and increased the belt to 4in. We upgraded the AA guns but now something had to be sacrificed. Well, the DNC has stated that long range search radar is now available and other improvements, so they have stated that we can remove the catapult and floatplane. The range and cruising speed is the same but we did have to increase the supply of oil, which is partly why she is heavier. We had to increase the length to account for the bigger engines and added fuel. We have also added more ammunition for the main batteries. This ship is not cramped like the Leander class so that will be good. We are now awaiting the next request by the DNC.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 31, 2020 16:02:20 GMT -6
I have begun a game as the British and have designed two advanced Leander class light cruisers. Unfortunately, the game classifies them as Heavy but I have given the name Advanced Leander. The thing to notice is that the DNC requested two versions. A 10,000 ton version and an 8000 ton version. So here we are. The Andromeda only has one catapult for one floatplane. There were other specifications that had to be sacrificed to maintain the 8000 tons including range and belt but the ship still has an immunity zone from 8000 yards to 15000 yards for 6 in. guns. She has six light AA guns and 10 heavy AA guns along with four 4in. Dual Purpose. Anyway, this illustrates what the British Navy had to accept in around 1934-1938.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on May 31, 2020 17:47:54 GMT -6
One of the issues that I have discovered in my readings about naval ships in the British Navy, is the recognition that the number and size of their particular warship is important in the decision to build or rebuild mine. Case in point was the British realizing in about 1935 and later that other nations like the US and Japan were building much bigger and better armed light cruisers. So now, the British had to follow their lead.
Now in the game, I can go to the nation data and examine each individual nation and the number of ships and the tonnage. I. E. In 1935 Germany, my primary possible opponent has four light cruisers in service with a total tonnage of 26,000 tons. That equates to 6500 tons. That means that to gain an advance I really need larger light cruisers. She still has a much larger heavy cruiser force. Specifically, 201500 tons and 17 ships with one building. That is over 11,000 tons per heavy cruiser. I, GB, have tonnage of about 12,042. This tells me, that while I don't have more heavy cruisers, I do have bigger heavy cruisers. There are other figures to consider but this is a start for me. It means more math and assessments, but it might give me more of a chance in case of a war. I would have to do this for France, Germany and the US as my primary opponents with Italy, Russia and Japan as secondaries. This will change with time.
I think I am going to need a larger staff.
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Jun 1, 2020 9:41:10 GMT -6
As I read more of Norman Friedman's book on British cruisers, I have learned that the British by 1935 had decided that the larger 8000-10000 ton cruisers were better for trade protection and the smaller 4000-6500 ton cruisers were better for fleet work. Now, trade protection for the British was world-wide using the Mediterranean as a passage through the Suez Canal to shorten the trip. But they also understood that by removing the catapults and floatplanes for a ship that was relieving another then exchange those planes for pom-poms because of the Italian naval and air forces made sense. It was an interesting revelation but it can't really be accomplished in the game. You would have to rebuild a ship, then move it to the Mediterranean. The ship being replaced would have to be moved. Then the floatplanes added to it. It would be complex. But those whole concept is interesting. ✈🤣
|
|